From VM Thu Apr 1 12:01:06 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11915" "Wednesday" "31" "March" "1999" "20:11:13" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "226" "starship-design: Re: Suggestion for starship fuel cycle (fusion)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) X-VM-Labels: nil X-VM-Summary-Format: "%n %*%a %-17.17F %-3.3m %2d %4l/%-5c %I\"%s\"\n" Content-Length: 11915 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA29427 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29376 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id yXTTa01943; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:11:13 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: mjones@dzn.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Suggestion for starship fuel cycle (fusion) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:11:13 EST Dear Michael, Thanks for your interest in the site, and your comments. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by a "proton-catalyzed carbon cycle reaction" or any type of "regenerative fusion cycle". All fusion cycles we could find consume fuel. Some like the Lithium-6 cycle can use the reactants from the first cycle to power the second cycle, but you can't just recycle the same fuel mass over and over. Also its important to note that we chose anti-nutronic fuel cycles that release their energy in the kinetic energy of the fusion products. No radiation. Virtually no heat. So they make highly effective rocket fuels. However the basic limitations of the power a given mass of fusion fuel can generate, becomes a staggering limitation. As you noted, the fuel loads required would be massive! Grossly dwarfing the starship. As to you other main points: The Explorer-class vehicles Bussard ramjet idea was abandoned after the diagrams and web site were worked up. It looks pretty unlikely that a ramscoop could even scoop up its own weight in interstellar material, assuming you could even make it work at all. So the Explorer concept now uses large fuel canisters (tankers?) boosted up to it to refuel it as it boosts out of the star system. Effectively it boosts out using fuel feed to it in a just- in-time system, and decels using internal fuel reserves. We toyed with the idea of using a scoop like system to brake the ship, but were skeptical that it would save us any fuel. Explorers hardware, living quarters designs, and such, are the nominal reference design for the other concepts. As to the M.A.R.S.-class It relies on beamed power from our Solar system, but we could never figure a solid idea on how we could use that to decelerate, nor were we optimistic at getting it to the ship over interstellar distances. To put it mildly this would be a staggering challenge. Thou your inverse square issue can be avoided by a maser beam, it would still defuse and the aim would degrade at such distances. The financial and political investment in Sun-orbital photoelectric collector arrays would be a problem. MARS and Fuel/Sail would both need vast emitter systems, with astronomical costs. Unless their was some major advance in automated, low cost manufacturing of such platforms, these systems would be undoable. Explorer has a similar problem with its fuel launcher system. Your security issue for the emitter array is also a common problem. Thou Fuel/Sail and Explorer only need the transmitters for a few months at boost, they also depend on them being their to slow them down on return to Earth. If for example that can't ABSOLUTELY prove they pose no contamination threat, the array will likely not be fired up to break them on their return. Since Alpha Centauri isn't in the ecliptic plane, Sols planets wouldn't cross the beam's path. We assumed their would be few if any mid flight maneuvers, so tearing the sail didn't seem an issue. I'm afraid your mistaken, the sail can not be decelerated by tacking into the beam. This only works in our star system due to orbital mechanics. Useless on a fast interstellar mission. Sail erosion at high velocities would be a major issue. Fuel/Sail could furl its Sail after a couple month, but MARS would take it hard! Like all our designs, MARS is unaffordable with out major technical improvements in manufacturing. A society that could attempt the degree of space based construction needed for the emitter arrays, would have taped the huge resources of space, so raw materials wouldn't be an issue, and power would have to be common through out the developed world or its space based colonies. But that's a very big if! Not being able to change course isn't much of a problem though. If you look out in the night ski, you'll notice there is little if anything near any given course to or from any star. Fuel/Sail seems the most promising at the moment. Offering fairly high speed (.4c) and less extreme technical challenges, but it still is unaffordable. Thanks for all the time you put into your response. I'll forward it to the group. If you'd like, you might join the group if you wish to make frequent comments. Thou I'm afraid we haven't had a lot of activity the last year or two. We frankly ran out of new ideas, and developed the old ones about as far as we could. Without a major break through in technology or physics, these designs are undoable. Thanks again. Sincerely, Kelly Starks >Dear Kelly, > > Have you considered using a regenerative fusion cycle, such as a > proton-catalyzed carbon cycle reaction, which uses ordinary boron as a > "seed" fuel? I mention this to you because, after looking over your > design summaries, I have some misgivings about each of your propulsion > approaches. > To begin with the Explorer-class vehicle, which uses a lithium-6 fuel > cycle: > > * Though Li-6 is relatively plentiful and inexpensive, the cycle is > non-regenerative (once the fuel is "burned", it is not recycled > into "new" fuel); therefore, any practical starship would be a > massive construction, nearly all of which is fuel tankage/storage. > * The engine system (essentially a 1960-vintage Bussard ramjet) has > several enormous engineering hurdles to overcome, not least in the > area of field generation and control. Even if these challenges > could be met, in the end you are left with a tremendously huge and > complex vehicle which self-destructs whenever it is throttled up to > full power. (A slight modification to the system might, however, > serve as a usable braking system for a starship) > * Assuming one could get the engine up to full power without > destroying itself and/or the collection field, the efficiency of > the system is limited by the hydrogen density in the area(s) of > operation. Thus, it would be a much more practical propulsion > system if used near a galactic core than in the environs out here > in the Orion Arm. > > The next type of mission vehicle described is the M.A.R.S.-class > starship, which relies on beamed power from an outside source > (presumably located within the Solar system): > > * The energy requirements for the microwave emitter are, indeed, very > large, but are not, in and of themselves impossible given a large > enough financial and political investment in Sun-orbital > photoelectric collector arrays.The chief problem in this respect is > in the received power fall-off at the starship as it moves farther > into space (and away from the emitter array).due to the inverse > square law regarding signal propagation. Though this can, in > principle, be compensated for by continuously increasing the > emitter's ouput, at some point in the process a limit would be > reached wherein the emitter is transmitting at full capacity and > further increases in power output are beyond the physical > capabilities of the device. Additionally, this system demands that > the entire emitter infrastructure be in place and operational prior > to the first mission launch. > * The emitter system requires near-absolute reliability and security > during operation; security is required not only to protect the > infrastructure from deliberate sabotage, but also from damage > caused by debris, comets, meteoroids, etc. which also inhabit the > space around our star. Needless to say, security in this case also > depends, perhaps critically, on guaranteed (or at least assured) > funding throughout the mission cycle, which is an iffy thing at > best, especially during the extrasolar stages of the mission when > it will be difficult to gather public enthusiasm for the mission. > Another aspect of security, which can be partly planned for, is the > security of the beam itself.: It would probably have to be directed > out of the ecliptic plane to prevent periodic interruptions from > planets, etc. which would cross the beam's path; similarly, an > exclusion zone of some sort would be necessary to prevent other > spacecraft from wandering into the path of the beam (if that > happened, the effect on the beam would probably be negligible at > worst, but from the vehicle's point of view, it would be a very bad > thing). > * The chief difficulty for the starship will be to maneuver the > (very) large sail during in-flight maneuvers without tearing the > sail in the process. (By the way, the sail can be decelerated by > the expedient of tacking into the beam). Aside from this is the > problem of sail erosion by the interstellar medium, especially at > high velocities. > * The Solar system facilities, especially the photoelectric collector > arrays, must be so designed as to permit changeout of the array > cells during operation without severely degrading performance. This > is necessary as the collector arrays (located, most probably, in > intra-Mercurial orbits for efficiency) will be subjected to high > thermal loading and intense radiation exposure, which degrades the > collector cells over a (short) period of time. > > In short, the M.A.R.S. concept, while technically feasible in the > context of the base scenario (i.e. the 2040-2060 timeframe), it is > probably not politically feasible, especially in a society which would > be all too eager to divert some (or all) of the power from the emitter > array to increase the energy supply (hence, wealth) of its members (not > to mention the fact they would probably not be too eager to divest > themselves of the resources required to build the infrastructure, > especially if there are perceived to be greater needs on Earth). And, of > course, the M.A.R.S. starship is not autonomous, in any sense of the > word; it cannot, for example, change course to investigate some > previously unknown phenomenon, at least not without extensive > consultation with Earth and major modifications in the flight plan.This > alone suggests that the best use for the system might be point-to-point > automated cargo transport, which would depend on predictability of the > mission profile. Any missions of exploration, however, would be limited, > at least during the cruise phase, of strictly fly-by types of profiles. > > The Argosy-class starship design is not detailed on your website, so I > cannot comment on that concept. The Fuel/Sail-class vehicle addresses > some, though by no means all, of the drawbacks to the M.A.R.S.-class > starship, though it is still limited by fuel availability, as is the > Explorer-class design. > > My humble suggestion is that a new class of vehicle be investigated, > one that uses most (if not all) of the non-propulsive elements in the > Explorer-class vehicle, but uses a regenerative carbon-cycle fusion > reactor for propulsion and on-board electrical power. A side benefit to > this reaction is that its primary waste product is helium-4, which can > be readily liquified for use in the engine's cooling systems, thus > reducing the necessary area of the ship's radiator arrays. Similarly, > another output of the reaction cycle is a stream of positrons, which can > be reacted with electrons to provide added thrust. The primary benefit > of this reaction cycle is of course, its reduced need for fuel, thus > freeing up a larger fraction of the vehicle for useful > payload/supercargo. > > I apologize in advance for having taken so much of your valuable time > on this matter. If you have any questions on the material above, or if > you wish my assistance in further development of this concept, please do > not hesitate to contact me at mjones@dzn.com. > > > Sincerely, > > Michael E. Jones From VM Mon Apr 5 11:02:27 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["540" "Sunday" "4" "April" "1999" "23:24:11" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "12" "starship-design: Been quiet for a while..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 540 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02810 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 21:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02797 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 21:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-57.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.57]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04650 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3708570B.AB1E4710@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Been quiet for a while... Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 23:24:11 -0700 Hi all: It's been quiet here for quite a long time. I have been thinking, for now, perhaps we have exhausted our working 'resources' for designing a starship. Technologically, we aren't concrete yet. But, here is something we can do: define our overall objectives for exploring the destination star system. What planets/moons do we investigate the most heavily? How do we proceed in our exploration of planetary surfaces? I would like to hear your opinions on this. It might make for some thought provoking discussion. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Mon Apr 5 11:02:27 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1510" "Sunday" "4" "April" "1999" "23:40:38" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "33" "Re: starship-design: Been quiet for a while..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1510 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA20505 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20499 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante18.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante18.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.68]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id XAA41798; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:40:40 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante18.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id XAA17674; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:40:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3708570B.AB1E4710@sunherald.infi.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Been quiet for a while... Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Kyle, That's an excellent idea. Before we can decide what our priorities are as far as what bodies we study, we should ask what we might expect to find in a target starsystem. comets, big planets, li'l planets, asteriods of wildly varying compositions. My vote is that we give the most 'earth-like' planets the most emphasis if there is one, and also scout the system for water and other resources, especially on the minor bodies, in anticipation that humans might try to take up permanent residence there someday. In the absence of any earth-like bodies, we still ought to do the latter. Study of the star is important too: to compare the detailed measurements that will be possible from proximity with data on Sol. Also, does this system have a Kupier belt/oort cloud type thing? why/why not. Are there differences? Just trying to keep the ball rolling. Best regards, Nels Lindberg On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Hi all: > > It's been quiet here for quite a long time. I have been thinking, for > now, perhaps we have exhausted our working 'resources' for designing a > starship. Technologically, we aren't concrete yet. But, here is > something we can do: define our overall objectives for exploring the > destination star system. What planets/moons do we investigate the most > heavily? How do we proceed in our exploration of planetary surfaces? I > would like to hear your opinions on this. It might make for some thought > provoking discussion. > > Kyle R. Mcallister > From VM Mon Apr 5 11:02:27 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4199" "Monday" "5" "April" "1999" "10:48:41" "-0400" "Curtis L. Manges" "clmanges@worldnet.att.net" nil "82" "starship-design: response to latest" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4199 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA21843 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc06.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc06.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.41]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21832 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([208.254.56.24]) by mtiwmhc06.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with ESMTP id <19990405145010.DCVH14243@worldnet.att.net> for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:50:10 +0000 Message-ID: <3708CD49.8864CCAE@worldnet.att.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C1D89984D09B9975E87A6902" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Curtis L. Manges" From: "Curtis L. Manges" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: response to latest Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:48:41 -0400 --------------C1D89984D09B9975E87A6902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I like the idea of "defining the mission"; it does give another direction for thought. It's caused me to wonder already, if anyone has previously considered what sorts of instrumentation would be considered essential for the mission, as I've seen nothing about this here before, and it would effect the final design. One of the first steps in designing any vehicle is to define its payload, if only in terms of gross vehicle weight. Once you start asking where you want to go and what you want to look at, it seems reasonable to me that you begin to develop different designs for different missions. I think we can all agree that our primary interest would be in systems with a star much like our own, most likely to harbor life as we know it, and these would be the manned missions. Too bad our frail humanity can't stand much acceleration; it makes these the slowest. We then have choices concerning unmanned missions (depending on budget limits). We could send these to star systems without a star like our own, out of pure curiosity (knowledge is never wasted), or we could send one in advance to a system that we have chosen for a manned mission. This seems good to me, as it would be a pity to send men to an interesting star, only to find that it had no interesting planets. Our astronomy currently isn't up to finding earthlike planets, though we may get there, perhaps with something like a super-Hubble-type device or the 1000 AU "solar lens" telescope. Either way, it will be a slow search. We might be able to speed up the search, though, with a different kind of remote probe. Pick an area of space with, say, three or four candidate stars, and send a huge-ass telescope halfway there (more or less). The telescope would then have a closer look at all of the candidates and send back information that we could use to narrow our choices. What think ye? Curtis --------------C1D89984D09B9975E87A6902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone,

I like the idea of  "defining the mission"; it does give another direction for thought. It's caused me to wonder already, if anyone has previously considered what sorts of instrumentation would be considered essential for the mission, as I've seen nothing about this here before, and it would effect the final design. One of the first steps in designing any vehicle is to define its payload, if only in terms of gross vehicle weight.

Once you start asking where you want to go and what you want to look at, it seems reasonable to me that you begin to develop different designs for different missions. I think we can all agree that our primary interest would be in systems with a star much like our own, most likely to harbor life as we know it, and these would be the manned missions. Too bad our frail humanity can't stand much acceleration; it makes these the slowest.

We then have choices concerning unmanned missions (depending on budget limits). We could send these to star systems without a star like our own, out of pure curiosity (knowledge is never wasted), or we could send one in advance to a system that we have chosen for a manned mission. This seems good to me, as it would be a pity to send men to an interesting star, only to find that it had no interesting planets. Our astronomy currently isn't up to finding earthlike planets, though we may get there, perhaps with something like a super-Hubble-type device or the 1000 AU "solar lens" telescope. Either way, it will be a slow search.

We might be able to speed up the search, though, with a different kind of remote probe. Pick an area of space with, say, three or four candidate stars, and send a huge-ass telescope halfway there (more or less). The telescope would then have a closer look at all of the candidates and send back information that we could use to narrow our choices.

What think ye?

Curtis --------------C1D89984D09B9975E87A6902-- From VM Mon Apr 5 11:02:27 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1849" "Monday" "5" "April" "1999" "11:15:18" "EDT" "Stravonski@aol.com" "Stravonski@aol.com" nil "33" "starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1849 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27714 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27704 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Stravonski@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.3) id 7SWSa12812; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:15:18 -0500 (EDT) Message-ID: <858a3222.243a2d86@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stravonski@aol.com From: Stravonski@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing! Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:15:18 EDT Kyle, I first found LIT back in mid-late 1994. I think for the discussion that have been going on, five years is incredible. I do think that maybe people might be getting all talked out. How long can you talk about going to Disney World before you just want to go there. I myself had always hope that LIT could take all the ideas and information collected in this think tank and attempt to get real-world backing. After all, someday someone will be the first to actually do this feat, why not us? I know the group had discussed destination star systems back in 1995, but I honestly forgot which one was selected. Of course, now there have been real planets discovered since the destination discussion and that may well change where we should go. Since this would be a prototype vessel (we are still planning a single ship aren't we?), I would make a recommendation that we shoot over to Proxima Centauri and back to make sure everything works well before we do any really big trips. Any comments on this? Another thing we could start doing is trying to put a price tag on this mission, unless that's already been done and I missed it when I was in Australia. If it hasn't been done, we should try and attach some real figures to the construction, launching, testing, and maintenance of the ship. That information could then be used to see how much backing we need to get the thing going. It would give LIT some good publicity (Worldwide Internet Think Tank Attempts to Acquire Backing for Interstellar Spacecraft), and show everyone on the planet that we feel that space advancement and exploration is proceeding at a snail's pace. Why if it weren't for McNamara doing so much damage to NASA, we'd have landed a manned team on Mars in the 1980s. What do you all think? Mike Pfeifer Systems Analyst Colorado From VM Tue Apr 6 11:53:10 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["989" "Monday" "5" "April" "1999" "23:20:58" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "Kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "19" "starship-design: Check out the latest (May 99) Discover Magazine for an article on antigravity." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 989 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29309 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.42]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29266 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:36:30 -0500 Received: from [206.146.208.188] by maroon.tc.umn.edu for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:36:29 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19990405211247.01842770@www.urly-bird.com> X-Sender: web121aa@www.urly-bird.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Check out the latest (May 99) Discover Magazine for an article on antigravity. Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:20:58 -0500 And get ready to eat some crow you guys, Kyle gets a free "I told you so!" Article is about superconductivity and antigravity (or "gravity modification" for the politically correct). Basically the same things that Kyle has been talking about. NASA is taking it seriously, and the results *have* been reproduced. Right now they are concentrating on eliminating all sources of possible error, making very detailed measurements (current weight loss is about 2%. Is it real or is it error?), and trying to understand the underlying science. Other related issues have to do with inertia and "borrowing" a little inertia from the farthest corner of the universe for a split second before paying it back (and can you pay it back in such a way the both the borrowing and the payback result in infinitesimal motion in the same direction?) I don't pretend to understand it (and I am *sure* that I didn't explain it very well) but it was a fascinating article all the same. Kevin Houston. From VM Tue Apr 6 11:53:10 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2692" "Monday" "5" "April" "1999" "23:37:24" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "49" "Re: starship-design: Check out the latest (May 99) Discover Magazine for an article on antigravity." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2692 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00735 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00725 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-31.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.31]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19515 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3709ABA3.BFA4E2BE@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4.1.19990405211247.01842770@www.urly-bird.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Check out the latest (May 99) Discover Magazine for an article on antigravity. Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:37:24 -0700 Kevin Houston wrote: > > And get ready to eat some crow you guys, Kyle gets a free "I told you so!" Heheheh...well, I had the feeling it could be done. Podkletnov seemed quite believable, rejection by other scientists notwithstanding. For instance, on a post to sci.physics, one physicist said that there was no reason to discuss antigravity results because antigravity cannot exist. Arrogant, eh? There is bad on both sides though. Worse on the pseudoscience side, they are the ones who give antigravity and FTL researchers a bad name. As morbid as it is, a PhD friend of mine may have put it correctly: we may have to wait for the old generation to die before progress can be made. I hope this isn't so, and this article seems to bring a little hope to the matter. I'm not going to belittle anyone here though, after all, Steve was right many times. You can't just come up with some half-cocked theory and expect it to be true. You must do replicable research. > Article is about superconductivity and antigravity (or "gravity > modification" for the politically correct). Basically the same things that > Kyle has been talking about. Oh, I talked about it, but not very well. Back in '97, I was still about 75% kid, 25% scientist, so I was understandably weird ;) Now, I hope that the ration of kid to scientist has changed. First rule of experimenting: "What did I do wrong this time???" > NASA is taking it seriously, and the results > *have* been reproduced. Right now they are concentrating on eliminating > all sources of possible error, making very detailed measurements (current > weight loss is about 2%. Is it real or is it error?), and trying to > understand the underlying science. Yes, I have the article right here. Quite an interesting read. Too bad they did not mention John Schnurer, he has made much headway in the research of this effect. He has worked with Podkletnov. In my book, those two will always be the ones who did it first, not the established NASA scientists. They did good replications, but I have been critical of their work. For one thing, they should have hired Podkletnov to show them exactly how to get it to work. But they had to do it their way. That is probably why it took them so long to get results. I have dabbled in the superconductor research of Schnurer, and it does work. It does *something*. Anyone could probably build it if you wanted to. Search for John's patent for a gravity modification device. As far as my research on these subjects, I do a little here and there. As it is 'alternative', as the NASA antigravity research is, I keep to myself about most of it. Until I get great results of course... ;) Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Tue Apr 6 16:01:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2000" "Tuesday" "6" "April" "1999" "18:14:10" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "55" "Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03653 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03627 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.4) id zIRGa22323 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <165f6bda.243be132@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing! Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:14:10 EDT >From: Stravonski@aol.com > Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Reply-to: Stravonski@aol.com > To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > > Kyle, > > I first found LIT back in mid-late 1994. I think for > the discussion that have been going on, five years is > incredible. I do think that maybe people might be > getting all talked out. How long can you talk about > going to Disney World before you just want to go > there. I myself had always hope that LIT could take > all the ideas and information collected in this think > tank and attempt to get real-world backing. == Ah, we'ld need something like an O'niel colony in orbit to even support construction of the ship! The maser array to boost the stuff out of orbit would involve thousands (?) of full sized space solar power platforms. As a rough guess were talking costs equivilent to decades of total US GNP to set up the array. > I know the group had discussed destination star > systems back in 1995, but I honestly forgot which > one was selected. === Kind of hard to even get to centauri, so the selection is limited. > === that we feel that space advancement and exploration > is proceeding at a snail's pace. Why if it weren't for > McNamara doing so much damage to NASA, we'd have > landed a manned team on Mars in the 1980s. What do > you all think? I worked at NASA in the shuttle and station programs for about 15 years. McNamara didn't do anything to NASA. We never went to Mars or back to the moon because we had no interest in doing it. We really only did the moon to show up Russia. Right now NASA is a impediment to space. They have no real budget to do anything, and won't take any risks on current gen or new technology, and they fight like hell to keep the new star ups or the military from passing them by. Fortunatly they are failing and force to try to follow. Kelly > Mike Pfeifer > Systems Analyst > Colorado Kelly From VM Tue Apr 6 16:01:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["110" "Tuesday" "6" "April" "1999" "16:18:45" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "3" "starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 110 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03584 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03568 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin52.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.52]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA16568 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:18:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370A9655.66893628@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: build it now... Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:18:45 -0700 Sure I am game to build it now... But we do seem to be lacking in finding a small reusable launch rocket... From VM Tue Apr 6 16:03:35 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1314" "Tuesday" "6" "April" "1999" "18:13:33" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Been quiet for a while..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1314 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12419 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12399 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.4) id zOWGa26987 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9ff96add.243be10d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Been quiet for a while... Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:13:33 EDT > It's been quiet here for quite a long time. I have been > thinking, for now, perhaps we have exhausted our > working 'resources' for designing a starship. > Technologically, we aren't concrete yet. But, here > is something we can do: define our overall objectives > for exploring the destination star system. What > planets/moons do we investigate the most heavily? > How do we proceed in our exploration of planetary > surfaces? I would like to hear your opinions on this. > It might make for some thought provoking discussion. I think we covered that way back when. Some folks were pushing everything to colonize something semi-earth like. I wanted a reasonable survey of all planets and moons including ground survey teams (where feasable). I figured the ship would pull drop survey sats around all the planets and such, then they sit and study the data figuring out what looks interesting. Then survey teams in bus sized sealed rovers are shuttled down. They wander around, launch more drones, etc. Then they get shuttled up to a quareenteen platform. They have to absolutly prove they are not contaminated, or they are abandoned. (The Starship will not be deceled on return to Sol unless it can prove its clean.) otherwise they go back into the ship or next survey world. Kelly From VM Wed Apr 7 11:32:41 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8760" "Tuesday" "6" "April" "1999" "20:04:53" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "219" "starship-design: Fwd: Review of \"Dragonfly\"" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 8760 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25856 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25837 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.4) id zGOHa18314; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_e7fb4b66.243bfb25_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Kryswalker@aol.com Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Review of "Dragonfly" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:04:53 EDT --part1_e7fb4b66.243bfb25_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI --part1_e7fb4b66.243bfb25_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:26:28 -0500Received: from bastion.mail.sprint.com (bastion3.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.131]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA11155 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:26:27 -0400 (EDT)Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP for kellyst@aol.com; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:26:04 -0500Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:26:26 -0500Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03575 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:26:25 -0500 (CDT)From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA00810 for kellyst@aol.com; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:26:24 -0500 (CDT)X-OpenMail-Hops: 1Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:26:16 -0500Message-Id: Subject: Review of "Dragonfly"TO: kellyst@aol.comMIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-018a22e4-00000001" Reply-To: To: undisclosed-recipients:; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 http://www.jamesoberg.com/speech/dragon.html Review of "Dragonfly" James Oberg Washington Times, January 3, 1999 Rockets and space vehicles are so overwhelmingly impressive that they often dwarf the human figures associated with them. Aside from images of smiling, steel-jawed astronauts whose vocabularies consist mainly of ``What a fantastic sight,'' the people behind the space dramas rarely are seen. For the current generation of space-station astronauts, ``Dragonfly'' should change all that. Bryan Burrough weaves a smoothly readable, intimate portrait of the highly varied individual Americans who faced the most difficult and dangerous space missions since the first moon landings and shuttle flights - the expeditions aboard the Russian Mir space station in 1995-1997. Through Mr. Burrough's skilled narrative we come to know intimately a parade of strong-willed, creative and intelligent individuals who one by one spent months aboard the Russian space station. There's solid Norm Thagard, desperate for confirmation as the official ``first American to Mir,'' who methodically trains himself to carry out research that in space leads him to the brink of malnutrition and well past the edge of boredom. There's ``grandmotherly'' Shannon Lucid and her friend John Blaha, the ``old reliable'' pilot, whose friendship doesn't survive their back-to-back flights on Mir. We meet Jerry Linenger, the intense physician who nearly is killed in a flash fire in space and then agonizes over evidence that NASA and the Russians are covering up the severity of the crisis, and we meet British-born Michael Foale, nearly s best prepared Mir visitor ever - so much so that when he returns from space, NASA yanks him off future space station missions with the Russians. Lastly there is David Wolf, the brilliant medical scientist whose personal foibles doomed his astronaut career until he had one last chance to get back into space, by volunteering for Mir, where he triumphantly redeemed himself. Because of the book's publishing schedule, the last American on Mir, Australian-born Andy Thomas, gets only brief mention. Under unanticipated threats and dangers, each of these astronauts had to rely on their highly diverse personal strengths to get themselves through both sudden crises and long-term psychological stresses. How they all did so - and how close some of them came to being overcome - is an exploration narrative worthy of the traditions of Lewis and Clark, of Scott and of Amundsen, of Hillary and Cousteau and Lindbergh. Beyond the deeply human accounts, Mr. Burrough provides vivid descriptions of a NASA bureaucracy caught off guard again and again by the problems of long space flight and the politically inspired ``space partnership'' with Russia. Preparations were inadequate, personnel were picked with no previous Russian experience (sometimes deliberately with no such experience, on request of the Russians) and outside advice was not sought, nor accepted when it was offered. The author also provides, for the first time in any publication, a portrait of one of NASA's most mysterious figures, George Abbey. Considered the Machiavellian ``power behind the throne'' of Administrator Daniel Goldin, Mr. Abbey is currently the head of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, and hence in practice the head of both the space shuttle and space station programs. Mr. Abbey's reported leadership style, promoting and rewarding personal loyalty far more than professional competence, has had a curious effect on the astronaut corps. With rare exception (Mr. Burrough mentions Jerry Linenger and the doomed Blaine Hammond, but neglects to give credit to Apollo veteran John Young, who speaks out freely even as few listen), it seems to have converted men and women courageous enough to sit atop millions of pounds of rocket fuel into timid ``team players'' afraid to show any contrary opinions. Mr. Burrough describes how this consequent corps of ``Stepford Astronauts'' almost unanimously goes along with every major management decree for fear of losing future space-flight assignments, even while privately discussing safety and efficiency concerns among themselves. As a 22-year veteran of the space shuttle program, I read Mr. Burrough's book with a mixture of gratitude and envy. I'm grateful he was able to tell this story accurately and fully, as I know his account to be. And I'm envious at his exhilarating, exhausting experience in digging through the radio and meetings transcripts, talking at length with many of the principals and many of the support personnel, and assembling a coherent, comprehensible narrative of this dramatic phase of American space history. There are a number of disturbing aspects of our space program that this book reveals, sometimes only implicitly. Most worrisome is the simple fact that much of what the author discovered truly is new and original, but shouldn't be. During the course of the crises aboard Mir in 1997, NASA should have released more of this material, or the American news media should have dug it out. For example, for the first time in NASA history, reporters are no longer allowed to listen to live voice conversations from space - and requests to obtain summaries often require filing Freedom of Information Act letters. But neither NASA nor the press corps did their duty, and it is only with the publication of this book that the ``full story'' can in any way be said to be available to the public. Meanwhile, NASA's passion to indoctrinate the American public with its narrow and self-serving view of its programs (often based on sincere self- deception rather than deliberate mendacity) comes across in example after example, as do the determined Russian campaigns to dodge blame for major failures. In a book of more than 500 pages, the minor gaps and oversights are remarkably rare. Occasionally characters show up without being introduced or explained. Mr. Burrough has mastered almost but not quite all of the space technology he explains so well, but the bloopers are only for lifelong rocket scientists to worry about - I didn't find a single error of any real significance in the entire book. The first Americans aboard Mir had a remarkably high attrition rate - most quit, a few were transferred to other types of work at NASA. But the leadership at NASA remains unchanged from the Mir flights as the agency begins to implement plans for the International Space Station. Whether they have learned enough from their past experiences to perform better under the even heavier challenges to come is a critical question for NASA and for the country. Readers of this book will be in the best possible position outside of NASA to understand the institution's shortcomings as we prepare to face the greatest space-flight management challenge since Apollo. James Oberg, a 22-year veteran of the space shuttle program, is now an independent consultant and author in Houston. --part1_e7fb4b66.243bfb25_boundary-- From VM Wed Apr 7 11:32:42 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["335" "Wednesday" "7" "April" "1999" "09:05:23" "EDT" "Stravonski@aol.com" "Stravonski@aol.com" nil "11" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 335 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08635 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08626 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Stravonski@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.4) id zTPOa09712; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20547bba.243cb213@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stravonski@aol.com From: Stravonski@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:05:23 EDT In a message dated 04/06/99 16:21:01 Mountain Daylight Time, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: << Sure I am game to build it now... But we do seem to be lacking in finding a small reusable launch rocket... >> Excellent, then we know what areas we need to focus on. Does anyone else know of any holes in our plans? Mike Pfeifer From VM Wed Apr 7 11:32:42 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["637" "Wednesday" "7" "April" "1999" "09:05:24" "EDT" "Stravonski@aol.com" "Stravonski@aol.com" nil "14" "Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 637 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08924 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08916 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Stravonski@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.4) id zEJNa15822; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8993e069.243cb214@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stravonski@aol.com From: Stravonski@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing! Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:05:24 EDT In a message dated 04/06/99 16:20:57 Mountain Daylight Time, KellySt@aol.com writes: << I worked at NASA in the shuttle and station programs for about 15 years. McNamara didn't do anything to NASA. We never went to Mars or back to the moon because we had no interest in doing it. We really only did the moon to show up Russia. >> Sorry Kelly, I read some stuff back when I first joined LIT that said that NASA had partially completed a ship in 1981 that could get us to Mars. It further said that McNamara got it axed. I guess the information was not as reliable as I thought. Thanks for the correction. Mike Pfeifer From VM Wed Apr 7 11:39:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3166" "Wednesday" "7" "April" "1999" "20:29:04" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "68" "starship-design: URANOS Club Newsletter No. 2" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3166 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06529 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06383 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id UAA15728 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:29:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199904071829.UAA15728@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: URANOS Club Newsletter No. 2 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:29:04 +0200 (MET DST) --------------------------------------------------------------- --> http://www.uranos.eu.org/uranose.html <-- * * **** *** * * *** **** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * **** ***** * * * * * *** * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * *** * * * * * * *** **** CLUB * for * EXPANSION * of * CIVILIZATION * into * SPACE --------------------------------------------------------------- No. 2 URANOS CLUB NEWSLETTER 6.IV.1999 This is the new issue of our irregularly published electronic newsletter. To receive further issues of this newsletter, please send a letter expressing such a wish to the address: --------------------------------------------------------------- Changes to the URANOS site: - An English version of the "Great Contributors to Space Exploration" page has been added. - A general change of the structure of site navigation aids has been made (in anticipation to the soon-coming significant extension of the site - through adding the "Poland and Poles in space" pages): this includes the main layout change of the "Contents" page and adding new navigation menus on every page. - Link pages were shortened (by changes in HTML coding), many new links added (especially to the list of Polish WWW sites), and a number of others updated. - Many small improvements of graphics, coding and layout of most of the pages (especially in order to make them work well for different browsers) has been made, including addition of a number of links to items in the texts and correction of the errors found. Other information: - We are urgently looking for volunteers - native speakers of English - to help us on language checking and proofreading of English translations of our new pages. - Our discussion list grows slowly but systematically - it counts already 26 participants. - We contacted and started co-operation with Polish Astronomical Society (information about our Club appeared in No. 11 of the Society's internet newsletter, and the newsletter is also being forwarded to our list ), as well as with the Polish Astronautical Society (information about our Club appeared in No. 2/1999 of the newsletter "Astronautyka"). Special information - The POLSTAR Project: - We advise you to become acquainted with a current problem concerning Polish presence in space - troubles with planned Polish geostationary satellite. Details can be found in an article in the Polish weekly "Wprost" from December 1998, available on the Web (sorry, in Polish only), at one of the addresses: http://www.wprost.pl/iso/12.06.1998(836)/numer/s90.htm http://www.wprost.pl/ascii/12.06.1998(836)/numer/s90.htm A discussion of the problem goes currently on our list - we invite you to take part in it! --------------------------------------------------------------- Please forward! From VM Thu Apr 8 10:03:51 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["507" "Wednesday" "7" "April" "1999" "22:07:43" "-0400" "Curtis L. Manges" "clmanges@worldnet.att.net" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 507 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04207 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04201 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([208.250.34.174]) by mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with ESMTP id <19990408020830.CWZH4618@worldnet.att.net>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:08:30 +0000 Message-ID: <370C0F6F.EE5FC34F@worldnet.att.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20547bba.243cb213@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Curtis L. Manges" From: "Curtis L. Manges" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Stravonski@aol.com, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca, "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 22:07:43 -0400 Stravonski@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 04/06/99 16:21:01 Mountain Daylight Time, > bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: > > << Sure I am game to build it now... > But we do seem to be lacking in finding a small reusable launch > rocket... >> > > Excellent, then we know what areas we need to focus on. Does anyone > else know of any holes in our plans? > > Mike Pfeifer The small, reuseable launch vehicle is in aggressive development. See www.rotaryrocket.com. Keep looking up, Curtis From VM Thu Apr 8 10:03:51 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4637" "Thursday" "8" "April" "1999" "02:01:19" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "103" "starship-design: Fwd: The Nordley Relativistic Particle Beam (RPB) drive requires a number of beam dr" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4637 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24697 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24663 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.7) id zQJDa11774 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <90c4ef30.243da02f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_90c4ef30.243da02f_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: The Nordley Relativistic Particle Beam (RPB) drive requires a number of beam dr Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:19 EDT --part1_90c4ef30.243da02f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As to the topic of the cost of a project like this. Out of the artical I attached comes that a 1000-ton RPB-drive ship accelerating at 1 earth gravity requires one million drivers, with a required power input of 3 GW/driver. Thats a thousand trillion watts. At current electric plant costs, that would be about a thousand trillion dollars. Or about 300 years of the the US GNP. Given our ships (loaded with deboost fuel) weigh in at 25 million tons, thats 25,000 times more cost. Manufacturing cost have to come WAY down. Kelly --part1_90c4ef30.243da02f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (rly-yd05.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.5]) by air-yd03.mx.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:34:02 -0400Received: from bastion4-ext.mail.sprint.com (bastion.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.129]) by rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id QAA03254 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:34:01 -0400 (EDT)Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion4.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:29:27 -0500Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:33:24 -0500Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17533 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:33:22 -0500 (CDT)From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA03399 for kellyst@aol.com; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:33:21 -0500 (CDT)X-OpenMail-Hops: 1Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:33:16 -0500Message-Id: Subject: The Nordley Relativistic Particle Beam (RPB) drive requires a number of beam drivers "fixed" in theTO: kellyst@aol.comMIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-0190aec3-00000001" Reply-To: To: undisclosed-recipients:; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 The Nordley Relativistic Particle Beam (RPB) drive requires a number of beam drivers "fixed" in the Solar System, which shoots a relativistic neutral particle beam at a magsail-equipped spacecraft. The spacecraft ionizes the incoming particle beam, which is them reflected by the magsail. To minimize focusing distance of the beam, Nordley suggests performing acceleration to terminal velocity while still close to Sol. This requires accelerations approaching or even exceeding one earth gravity, which has the problem of requiring thousands of terawatts of power for massive (> 1000 tons) payloads. A 1000-ton RPB-drive ship accelerating at 1 earth gravity requires a mass flow of 43 grams/sec from the beam drivers back home. If split among one million drivers, this results in 43 micrograms/sec/driver, with a required power input of 3 GW/driver. For those who think these are impossible numbers for engineering such a system, Nordley adds: "The point is that a million beam drivers for an interstellar propulsion system is not unreasonable for a civilization that made ten million automobiles a year before robotics." To get a feel for the energy required, he scales the acceleration back to 0.036 earth gravities and compares the a 1000-ton RPB-driven probe with a 1000-ton laser lightsail at the same acceleration. The RPB-driven probe requires 11 GW/ton to accelerate, as opposed to 65 GW/ton for the lightsail. Nordley suggests a massive neutral particle, such as a heavy atom or molecule (C60 or C60F60 surrounding a heavy atom was suggested) for use in an RPB driver. Massive particles will not be disturbed by encounters with interstellar hydrogen atoms, but still be able to be manipulated by light pressure so as to collimate the beam downrange from the drivers. The primary reflection scheme Nordley discusses is the magnetic sail concept developed by Andrews and Zubrin. He notes that while other reflector concepts (such as an Orion-style pusher plate and D-He3 pellets) are readily usable by this system, there would be losses due to heating of the reflector which would not translate to propulsion. Magnetic fields are conservative, require little if any additional energy (if using superconductors), and have little energy dissipation upon establishing the field. --part1_90c4ef30.243da02f_boundary-- From VM Thu Apr 8 10:03:51 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["562" "Thursday" "8" "April" "1999" "02:01:06" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 562 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24631 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24625 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.7) id zQJDa24546; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Stravonski@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing! Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:06 EDT > Sorry Kelly, I read some stuff back when I first joined > LIT that said that NASA had partially completed a ship > in 1981 that could get us to Mars. It further said that > McNamara got it axed. I guess the information was not > as reliable as I thought. Thanks for the correction. > > Mike Pfeifer ??? McNamara was out of government in '81, and I can't for the life of me remember any LIT statement like that! NASA, or rather the US, pretty much has the tech to get people to Mars, but nothing in '81 was built specifically for manned Mars. Kelly From VM Thu Apr 8 10:03:51 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5614" "Thursday" "8" "April" "1999" "02:01:12" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "125" "starship-design: Fwd: Orion and mag loop" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5614 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24612 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24604 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.7) id zRJDa08773 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <48001d3b.243da028@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_48001d3b.243da028_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Orion and mag loop Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:12 EDT --part1_48001d3b.243da028_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI Interesting site. --part1_48001d3b.243da028_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:34:47 -0500Received: from bastion4-ext.mail.sprint.com (bastion.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.129]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA28243 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:34:42 -0400 (EDT)Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion4.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:30:14 -0500Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:34:44 -0500Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25382 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:34:43 -0500 (CDT)From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA09058 for kellyst@aol.com; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:34:42 -0500 (CDT)X-OpenMail-Hops: 1Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:34:41 -0500Message-Id: Subject: Orion and mag loopTO: kellyst@aol.comMIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-018db280-00000001" Reply-To: To: undisclosed-recipients:; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/STL.htp >>>>BRIN: I have heard that there are enough warheads in the arsenals of the United States and the former Soviet Union that, if we beat them all into plowshares and used them all for Orion ships, that we could send a mass equivalent to the United States Navy to Mars. LANDIS: What are some of the other possibilities for ways that we might get to the stars with real technology that we know today? BRIN: All sorts of possibilities have been discussed. At the opposite end of the spectrum from the image of a fiery antimatter rocket, was the idea of sending a little "Starwisp" spacecraft streaking out of the solar system. This was originally Bob Forward's notion; a broad, very light sail that takes a focused microwave beam to drive this little one-ounce spacecraft. The microwave beam sends it hurtling across the starscape. FORWARD: One of the newest ideas is one that Dana Andrews, Bob Zubrin, and Geoffrey Landis have proposed, particle-beam propulsion. The basic idea is to have a particle beam generator, stuck to an asteroid (because you can't use it on the Earth, the atmosphere gets in the way, and once it gets firing it has a lot of recoil, so you have to put it on something heavy). So you take an asteroid and you build your particle beam generator, and you beam both positive particles and negative particles out into space-- BRIN: You make your vehicle a hoop. FORWARD: Right, a hoop. And you put current through it to make a strong magnetic field, and when the charged particles come they hit the magnetic field, and they give the magnetic field a push, and it gives the wire a push, and the wire gives the spacecraft a push, and so that's the way you get up to speed. BRIN: This is a variant on the idea of sending a microwave beam--Forward's Starwisp--or of hitting a solar sail with a laser. FORWARD: Beamed power propulsion. BRIN: What all three of these ideas have in common is that you can send a ship out that doesn't have to carry its own energy, doesn't have to carry its own fuel. Because the biggest problem in approaching the speed of light is that you not only have to accelerate your own ship, but you have to accelerate the fuel that you're going to use for later acceleration. So people have been swinging over to this idea that the best way to reach the stars is to have a home base shoot power out to you, whether by particle beams, lasers, or microwaves. FORWARD: I think that, after years of study, it's now very obvious that, if you want to go to the stars, don't use rockets. You have to use something else. Beamed power is one way. The beauty about this engine is that, unlike some of the ideas I've had where you push it with lasers or microwaves, is that when you enter the target solar system, you can use it as a drag brake against the solar wind to slow down and come to a stop, without doing anything fancy except re-energizing the magnetic loop. POST: In fact, any kind of interstellar craft can use a magnetic sail to brake. So we're talking about hybrids, good ideas that combine two other good ideas. The ancestor of the magnetic sail was the interstellar ramjet of Robert Bussard. Many people played with that concept, which uses interstellar hydrogen as freely-available fuel, but the scoop to collect the hydrogen seems to produce more drag than thrust. James Stephens of JPL tried to patent the magsail first, under the name 'loopsat.' When I worked for Dana Andrews on Boeing's 1981 survey of advanced propulsion, I tried to hybridize huge superconducting loops with ion drives, and considered trajectories through the Earth's magnetotail, the Jovian magnetosphere, and the Io Flux tube. Bob Zubrin deserves credit as father of the magsail--he derived the essential equations--but the idea has many grandfathers, and clearly Bussard is the great-grandfather. --part1_48001d3b.243da028_boundary-- From VM Thu Apr 8 10:03:52 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["331" "Thursday" "8" "April" "1999" "10:32:26" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "8" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 331 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12176 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12167 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin61.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.61]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22236 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:32:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370CE82A.99C2D64E@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20547bba.243cb213@aol.com> <370C0F6F.EE5FC34F@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:32:26 -0700 "Curtis L. Manges" wrote: > The small, reuseable launch vehicle is in aggressive development. See > www.rotaryrocket.com. > Thanks for reminding me, I have not checked that site out this week. The catch is like the rest of the ship the launch vehicle must fully bootstapable. You land on a planet you better be able to fix it. From VM Thu Apr 8 14:07:32 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["60" "Thursday" "8" "April" "1999" "14:59:27" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "1" "starship-design: todays news at nasa" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 60 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01895 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01868 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin45.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.45]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA19455 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:00:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370D26BF.BBAB508C@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: todays news at nasa Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:59:27 -0700 http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop08apr99_1.htm From VM Thu Apr 8 15:52:16 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["567" "Thursday" "8" "April" "1999" "18:30:54" "EDT" "Stravonski@aol.com" "Stravonski@aol.com" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 567 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27665 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27658 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Stravonski@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.7) id zOOJa01172; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stravonski@aol.com From: Stravonski@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing! Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:30:54 EDT In a message dated 04/08/99 00:01:06 Mountain Daylight Time, Kelly St writes: << McNamara was out of government in '81, and I can't for the life of me remember any LIT statement like that! NASA, or rather the US, pretty much has the tech to get people to Mars, but nothing in '81 was built specifically for manned Mars. Kelly >> The information I read wasn't from LIT. It was some other space web site I was visiting. It had an interview with one of the Apollo astronauts and I think it was he that said that about the ship and McNamara. Mike Pfeifer From VM Fri Apr 9 15:45:03 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["493" "Friday" "9" "April" "1999" "18:29:39" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 493 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01824 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01815 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id zYNFa23609; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:29:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <95c9b802.243fd953@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Stravonski@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Starship-Design: Let's build the thing! Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:29:39 EDT >> NASA, or rather the US, pretty much has the tech to >> get people to Mars, but nothing in '81 was built >> specifically for manned Mars. >> >> Kelly >> > > The information I read wasn't from LIT. It was some > other space web site I was visiting. It had an interview > with one of the Apollo astronauts and I think it was he > that said that about the ship and McNamara. > > Mike Pfeifer Haven't a clue what he was talking about. Could have been a misquote I guess. Kelly From VM Fri Apr 9 15:49:07 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7264" "Friday" "9" "April" "1999" "18:29:51" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "195" "starship-design: Echo of dragon fly" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7264 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05821 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05801 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id zLNFa17660 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6d12ebaf.243fd95f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Echo of dragon fly Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:29:51 EDT I was told this got scrambled the first time. Kelly Subj: Review of "Dragonfly" Date: Tue, Apr 6, 1999 11:26 AM EST From: kelly.g.starks@mail.sprint.com X-From: kelly.g.starks@mail.sprint.com (kelly g starks) To: kellyst@aol.com http://www.jamesoberg.com/speech/dragon.html Review of "Dragonfly" James Oberg Washington Times, January 3, 1999 Rockets and space vehicles are so overwhelmingly impressive that they often dwarf the human figures associated with them. Aside from images of smiling, steel-jawed astronauts whose vocabularies consist mainly of ``What a fantastic sight,'' the people behind the space dramas rarely are seen. For the current generation of space-station astronauts, ``Dragonfly'' should change all that. Bryan Burrough weaves a smoothly readable, intimate portrait of the highly varied individual Americans who faced the most difficult and dangerous space missions since the first moon landings and shuttle flights - the expeditions aboard the Russian Mir space station in 1995-1997. Through Mr. Burrough's skilled narrative we come to know intimately a parade of strong-willed, creative and intelligent individuals who one by one spent months aboard the Russian space station. There's solid Norm Thagard, desperate for confirmation as the official ``first American to Mir,'' who methodically trains himself to carry out research that in space leads him to the brink of malnutrition and well past the edge of boredom. There's ``grandmotherly'' Shannon Lucid and her friend John Blaha, the ``old reliable'' pilot, whose friendship doesn't survive their back-to-back flights on Mir. We meet Jerry Linenger, the intense physician who nearly is killed in a flash fire in space and then agonizes over evidence that NASA and the Russians are covering up the severity of the crisis, and we meet British-born Michael Foale, nearly s best prepared Mir visitor ever - so much so that when he returns from space, NASA yanks him off future space station missions with the Russians. Lastly there is David Wolf, the brilliant medical scientist whose personal foibles doomed his astronaut career until he had one last chance to get back into space, by volunteering for Mir, where he triumphantly redeemed himself. Because of the book's publishing schedule, the last American on Mir, Australian-born Andy Thomas, gets only brief mention. Under unanticipated threats and dangers, each of these astronauts had to rely on their highly diverse personal strengths to get themselves through both sudden crises and long-term psychological stresses. How they all did so - and how close some of them came to being overcome - is an exploration narrative worthy of the traditions of Lewis and Clark, of Scott and of Amundsen, of Hillary and Cousteau and Lindbergh. Beyond the deeply human accounts, Mr. Burrough provides vivid descriptions of a NASA bureaucracy caught off guard again and again by the problems of long space flight and the politically inspired ``space partnership'' with Russia. Preparations were inadequate, personnel were picked with no previous Russian experience (sometimes deliberately with no such experience, on request of the Russians) and outside advice was not sought, nor accepted when it was offered. The author also provides, for the first time in any publication, a portrait of one of NASA's most mysterious figures, George Abbey. Considered the Machiavellian ``power behind the throne'' of Administrator Daniel Goldin, Mr. Abbey is currently the head of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, and hence in practice the head of both the space shuttle and space station programs. Mr. Abbey's reported leadership style, promoting and rewarding personal loyalty far more than professional competence, has had a curious effect on the astronaut corps. With rare exception (Mr. Burrough mentions Jerry Linenger and the doomed Blaine Hammond, but neglects to give credit to Apollo veteran John Young, who speaks out freely even as few listen), it seems to have converted men and women courageous enough to sit atop millions of pounds of rocket fuel into timid ``team players'' afraid to show any contrary opinions. Mr. Burrough describes how this consequent corps of ``Stepford Astronauts'' almost unanimously goes along with every major management decree for fear of losing future space-flight assignments, even while privately discussing safety and efficiency concerns among themselves. As a 22-year veteran of the space shuttle program, I read Mr. Burrough's book with a mixture of gratitude and envy. I'm grateful he was able to tell this story accurately and fully, as I know his account to be. And I'm envious at his exhilarating, exhausting experience in digging through the radio and meetings transcripts, talking at length with many of the principals and many of the support personnel, and assembling a coherent, comprehensible narrative of this dramatic phase of American space history. There are a number of disturbing aspects of our space program that this book reveals, sometimes only implicitly. Most worrisome is the simple fact that much of what the author discovered truly is new and original, but shouldn't be. During the course of the crises aboard Mir in 1997, NASA should have released more of this material, or the American news media should have dug it out. For example, for the first time in NASA history, reporters are no longer allowed to listen to live voice conversations from space - and requests to obtain summaries often require filing Freedom of Information Act letters. But neither NASA nor the press corps did their duty, and it is only with the publication of this book that the ``full story'' can in any way be said to be available to the public. Meanwhile, NASA's passion to indoctrinate the American public with its narrow and self-serving view of its programs (often based on sincere self- deception rather than deliberate mendacity) comes across in example after example, as do the determined Russian campaigns to dodge blame for major failures. In a book of more than 500 pages, the minor gaps and oversights are remarkably rare. Occasionally characters show up without being introduced or explained. Mr. Burrough has mastered almost but not quite all of the space technology he explains so well, but the bloopers are only for lifelong rocket scientists to worry about - I didn't find a single error of any real significance in the entire book. The first Americans aboard Mir had a remarkably high attrition rate - most quit, a few were transferred to other types of work at NASA. But the leadership at NASA remains unchanged from the Mir flights as the agency begins to implement plans for the International Space Station. Whether they have learned enough from their past experiences to perform better under the even heavier challenges to come is a critical question for NASA and for the country. Readers of this book will be in the best possible position outside of NASA to understand the institution's shortcomings as we prepare to face the greatest space-flight management challenge since Apollo. James Oberg, a 22-year veteran of the space shuttle program, is now an independent consultant and author in Houston. From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["859" "Saturday" "10" "April" "1999" "02:22:03" "-0400" "Paul Anderson" "madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net" nil "20" "starship-design: Interesting, if large idea..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 859 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA18555 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bootes.ebtech.net (root@bootes.ebtech.net [206.152.142.12]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18550 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bootes.ebtech.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id CAA03900 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:45:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (madhobby@localhost) by geeky1.ebtech.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id CAA25540 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:22:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Paul Anderson From: Paul Anderson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea... Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:22:03 -0400 (EDT) One idea I've been pondering lately is that most people are focused on building space-fairing vessels that are too small. IIRC, the distance from earth to mars is 309 million miles(depending on position in orbit), right? That's a huge scale - modern craft are microscopic by comparison. I've been thinking about a much larger craft, a cylinder, approximately 50,000 miles long and 1,500 in diameter, with a suitable bar in the middle to provide illumination. A spin is put on the vessel to produce artificial gravity, and buildings are built on the interior surface. I've been told by certain sources that such a vessel over 23 kilometres is unfeasable to construct (wall thickness becomes incredible), any thoughts on using braces to overcome the limitation? --- Paul Anderson madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net "We have learned to imitute you exarctly." From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1954" "Saturday" "10" "April" "1999" "12:58:16" "+0100" "Andrew West" "andrew@hmm.u-net.com" nil "45" "Re: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1954 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA18986 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serv1.is1.u-net.net (serv1.is1.u-net.net [195.102.240.129]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA18978 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.112.8.136] (helo=daishi) by serv1.is1.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 2.00 #2) id 10VwL7-0000i1-00; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:54:26 +0000 Message-ID: <001001be8349$6e44b380$85e5fea9@daishi> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Andrew West" From: "Andrew West" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Paul Anderson" , Subject: Re: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea... Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:58:16 +0100 Where do you get all the metal/material from? I'd guess that that would be a fair percentage of the metal available in the asteroid belt... Don't wanna think how long that would take to build, and what it would cost if it were to go wrong somewhere along the line, even if it were possible. You'd probably also be looking at some pretty exotic materials if you could make something that big and spin it/accelerate it, not the sort of thing you'd find in asteroids anyway - so you'd need lots of synthesis etc also. Also, for craft that carry their own fuel, to get to a decent percentage of C (tho not really necessary on this sort of ship, as it's basically a planet anyway) you are looking at many many times more fuel than craft, so you'd need a LOT of fuel, even if it were water, I expect you'd be quite pressed to find enough of it? ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Anderson To: Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 7:22 AM Subject: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea... > One idea I've been pondering lately is that most people are focused on > building space-fairing vessels that are too small. IIRC, the distance > from earth to mars is 309 million miles(depending on position in orbit), > right? > > That's a huge scale - modern craft are microscopic by comparison. I've > been thinking about a much larger craft, a cylinder, approximately 50,000 > miles long and 1,500 in diameter, with a suitable bar in the middle to > provide illumination. A spin is put on the vessel to produce artificial > gravity, and buildings are built on the interior surface. I've been told > by certain sources that such a vessel over 23 kilometres is unfeasable to > construct (wall thickness becomes incredible), any thoughts on using > braces to overcome the limitation? > > > --- > Paul Anderson > madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net > "We have learned to imitute you exarctly." > > > > From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1614" "Saturday" "10" "April" "1999" "09:42:53" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "32" "RE: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1614 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06486 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06476 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p222.gnt.com [204.49.89.222]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA24817; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:49:22 -0500 Message-ID: <000501be8360$69f4e9f0$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Paul Anderson" Cc: "Starship-Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea... Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:42:53 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Paul > Anderson > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 1:22 AM > To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: starship-design: Interesting, if large idea... > > That's a huge scale - modern craft are microscopic by comparison. I've > been thinking about a much larger craft, a cylinder, approximately 50,000 > miles long and 1,500 in diameter, with a suitable bar in the middle to > provide illumination. A spin is put on the vessel to produce artificial > gravity, and buildings are built on the interior surface. I've been told > by certain sources that such a vessel over 23 kilometres is unfeasable to > construct (wall thickness becomes incredible), any thoughts on using > braces to overcome the limitation? > What you seem to be describing is a Dyson Sphere redesigned as a cylinder on a somewhat smaller scale. Nevertheless, it is still way, way beyond any foreseeable technology. Not only must you deal with mechanical loads far beyond even what diamond is capable of withstanding, you also have to worry about gravitation loads. This structure is large enough to produce its own tidal forces and due to its shape they are not going to be very evenly distributed. If your central "light source" also produced a gravitational gradient, then I suppose in theory you could use it to balance the tidal stresses on the cylinder and remove most of the structural difficulties. Now the only thing you have to do is build a small, thin, cylindrical star.... Lee Parker From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1856" "Saturday" "10" "April" "1999" "15:28:38" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "54" "starship-design: Fwd: Check it out" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1856 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23625 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23599 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id nJNJa12400; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_e035fd48.24410066_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: moschleg@erols.com, Sdudley6@aol.com, MARK.A.JENSEN@cpmx.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com, JohnFrance@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Check it out Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:28:38 EDT --part1_e035fd48.24410066_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The dark Side of space commerce. ;) Kelly --part1_e035fd48.24410066_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:38:25 -0400 Received: from bastion4-ext.mail.sprint.com (bastion.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.129]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id KAA12372 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion4.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:33:49 -0500 Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:38:23 -0500 Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA15030 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:38:22 -0500 (CDT) From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA14348 for kellyst@aol.com; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:38:21 -0500 (CDT) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:38:15 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: Check it out TO: kellyst@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-01988173-00000001" Reply-To: kelly.g.starks@mail.sprint.com --openmail-part-01988173-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.reston.com/nasa/humor/shuttle.ads.html --openmail-part-01988173-00000001-- --part1_e035fd48.24410066_boundary-- From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3886" "Wednesday" "10" "March" "1999" "19:46:54" "-0600" "Johnny Thunderbird" "jthunderbird@nternet.com" nil "88" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3886 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05659 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.nternet.com ([207.204.32.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA05646 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23590 invoked by uid 506); 11 Apr 1999 00:46:31 -0000 Received: from pm3-39.nternet.com (HELO nternet.com) (207.204.32.239) by eagle.nternet.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 1999 00:46:31 -0000 Message-ID: <36E7208D.98CFE35B@nternet.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20547bba.243cb213@aol.com> <370C0F6F.EE5FC34F@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Johnny Thunderbird From: Johnny Thunderbird Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:54 -0600 "Curtis L. Manges" wrote: > Stravonski@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 04/06/99 16:21:01 Mountain Daylight Time, > > bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: > > > > << Sure I am game to build it now... > > But we do seem to be lacking in finding a small reusable launch > > rocket... >> > > > > Excellent, then we know what areas we need to focus on. Does anyone > > else know of any holes in our plans? > > > > Mike Pfeifer > > The small, reuseable launch vehicle is in aggressive development. See > www.rotaryrocket.com. > > Keep looking up, > > Curtis I enjoy turning notions on their heads. Instead of a totally reuseable launch vehicle, I came up with a totally expendable launch system, all made of fuel except for the payload. Since efficiency is ultimately the basis of cost, you won't get much cheaper launch to orbit, than with the Paper Cannon concept. It's not really paper after it's been nitrated, it's nitrocellulose, like guncotton. And it's not really a cannon at all, but a shock tube, meant to squirt the slug of hydrogen gas contained within it, at hypersonic speeds, through the air. This breeze blows past the chunk of hydrogen ice which is fastened to the payload,. but this package catches up very soon, by mixing and igniting the column of hydrogen behind it. When the head of the jet of gaseous hydrogen has been passed, and all is burned behind it, the payload package rides on a chunk of solid hydrogen ice, which rapidly dwindles because it is the final stage fuel. The Paper Cannon, as I call it, will get your cargo in orbital momentum space real cheap, and there's nothing left to worry about, whether you should reuse it or not. The sleeve was gasified as it imploded, to squeeze its contained hydrogen forward in a big rush. The resulting jet of hydrogen was all consumed, by the traverse of the payload and cryofuel package, inducing turbulence and ignition in its wake. The solid hydrogen ice was ablated and ignited by all that fire behind it, and the payload then sailed naked into space. By designing from fundamentals, we reduced the rocket mass to zero. Like that one? Care to help with the math? Of course it isn't very accurate, but adjusting your orbital paramters can be done leisurely when you don't have to worry about falling down, nor about shoving your way through a lot of thick air. I posted this on the Beanstalk board, at http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb153173 so drop in and see the scheme. Say hi to Allen over at the Virtual Beanstalk Project. He wants to launch from stratospheric height, from a tethered aerostat platform. Tell him I sent you. http://members.aol.com/beanstalkr/project project home page. That sleeve, a.k.a. paper cannon, was originally puffed out of a launch tube by compressed hydrogen. The hydrogen ice and payload package beat it out, like a pea coming out of a peashooter, before the bottom of the sleeve was ignited, to start up the seriously speedy stuff. The payload package burns its way up a low pressure lane of pure hydrogen. Its fuel is all laid out in front of it, in its path, so all it has to do is mix it and burn it. That trick it pulls easily, by virtue of being a solid body passing through. The final stage, the solid hydrogen ice fuel tacked to the payload, forms the simplest external combustion SCRAMJET, and probably the simplest reaction engine. The combustion chamber is formed of that handy hypersonic shock wave coning around it, tough stuff even if you can see through it. The fuel sublimes and ignites. This is hydrogen ice, after all, on top of a great big bonfire, inside of an oxidizing atmosphere. It sublimes, it ignites. It goes on, out to where the oxygen peters out. Then you're in the gravy, for your package is in orbit, and there's no mess to clean up. Keep it lite, Johnny Thunderbird http://www.dejanews.com/~liteage From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:37 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["215" "Sunday" "11" "April" "1999" "21:54:27" "+0200" "Christoph Kulmann" "kulmann@uni-bremen.de" nil "10" "starship-design: Image" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 215 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00214 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de (alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.20.22]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00165 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de (alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.20.22]) by alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de (8.9.1a/ZfNServer) with SMTP id VAA157012 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:54:28 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Christoph Kulmann From: Christoph Kulmann Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Image Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:54:27 +0200 (DFT) Hello Group, I have an image which directly affects our topic. The starship is very similar to those discussed here. I hope you like it: http://www1.uni-bremen.de/~kulmann/bryce/arrival.html Greetings Christoph From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:37 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["365" "Sunday" "11" "April" "1999" "19:56:46" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "11" "starship-design: Evil Clones" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 365 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05082 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05076 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p192.gnt.com [204.49.89.192]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA07667 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:03:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001001be847f$56eba770$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: Evil Clones Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:56:46 -0500 Has anyone noticed that Kelly has been replaced by a clone? It is fairly obvious, the new Kelly uses a different e-mail program and knows how to spell...now the only question is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing! Lee Parker - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do. - B.F. Skinner From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:37 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["599" "Monday" "12" "April" "1999" "09:32:24" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Evil Clones" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 599 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA26941 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26932 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id JAA19929; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:32:24 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199904120732.JAA19929@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Evil Clones Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:32:24 +0200 (MET DST) > From: "L. Clayton Parker" > > Has anyone noticed that Kelly has been replaced by a clone? It is fairly > obvious, the new Kelly uses a different e-mail program and knows how to > spell... now the only question is whether this is a good thing or a bad > thing! > Wow! I have had no time recently to read posts from the list (all are waiting patiently in a lit.unread file...), so I did not notice. That is good, as a shock of noticing that might have been traumatic! I became so used (not to say - fond...) of the Good Ol' Kelly... Kelly, is that really true?? -- Zenon From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:37 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["159" "Monday" "12" "April" "1999" "10:01:20" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "8" "Re: starship-design: Fwd: Check it out" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 159 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14665 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14637 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin39.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.39]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13670 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:01:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371226E0.A09D118E@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Fwd: Check it out Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:01:20 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > The dark Side of space commerce. ;) > > Kelly That is the dark side... remind me to invest in products not on the shuttle... From VM Mon Apr 12 10:57:37 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["405" "Monday" "12" "April" "1999" "10:08:50" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "9" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 405 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20346 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20297 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin39.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.39]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14089 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:09:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371228A2.2B81B96E@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20547bba.243cb213@aol.com> <370C0F6F.EE5FC34F@worldnet.att.net> <36E7208D.98CFE35B@nternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:08:50 -0700 Johnny Thunderbird wrote: > > I enjoy turning notions on their heads. Instead of a totally reuseable > launch vehicle, I came up with a totally expendable launch system, > all made of fuel except for the payload. Since efficiency is ultimately > the basis of cost, you won't get much cheaper launch to orbit, than > with the Paper Cannon concept. I wonder if that idea will work for fireworks too!!! From VM Tue Apr 13 11:26:16 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1518" "Saturday" "13" "March" "1999" "03:49:56" "-0600" "Johnny Thunderbird" "jthunderbird@nternet.com" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1518 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA19284 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 02:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.nternet.com ([207.204.32.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA19273 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 02:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9652 invoked by uid 506); 13 Apr 1999 08:48:56 -0000 Received: from pm3-45.nternet.com (HELO nternet.com) (207.204.32.245) by eagle.nternet.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 08:48:56 -0000 Message-ID: <36EA34C4.B4418A50@nternet.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20547bba.243cb213@aol.com> <370C0F6F.EE5FC34F@worldnet.att.net> <36E7208D.98CFE35B@nternet.com> <371228A2.2B81B96E@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Johnny Thunderbird From: Johnny Thunderbird Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk CC: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 03:49:56 -0600 bfranchuk wrote: > Johnny Thunderbird wrote: > > > > I enjoy turning notions on their heads. Instead of a totally reuseable > > launch vehicle, I came up with a totally expendable launch system, > > all made of fuel except for the payload. Since efficiency is ultimately > > the basis of cost, you won't get much cheaper launch to orbit, than > > with the Paper Cannon concept. > > I wonder if that idea will work for fireworks too!!! What counts is the social question which often accompanies innovation. Is that what we really want? Is what we really want, a super cannon so cheap to build that Mauritania can have all the satellites it wants? The threshold for non shall we say governmental institutions, e.g. gangs, to have hypervelocity artillery, is crossed long before the smallest nations put up their peaceful scientific payloads. I write science fiction, so I try to think about what people do with their gadgets. The Paper Cannon notion, in my story about it ( sorry, not finished ) is really used for a weapon against satellites, more than a satellite launcher. Some among the have-nots decide not to get trounced so badly by the haves, and use this device, in thousands of low cost clone installations, to destroy everything in low Earth orbit. That levels the playing field, especially since hypervelocity artillery can sweep the skies clean of all flying objects. You can call it fireworks. Actually, hydrogen burns with little flame. Peace & Love, Johnny Thunderbird http://fly.to/heavyLight From VM Tue Apr 13 15:48:59 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["60" "Tuesday" "13" "April" "1999" "16:34:11" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "1" "starship-design: anti-matter news" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 60 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10937 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10920 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin46.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.46]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA21373 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:34:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3713D473.F44D5FAD@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: anti-matter news Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:34:11 -0700 http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop12apr99_1.htm From VM Tue Apr 13 15:50:36 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["506" "Tuesday" "13" "April" "1999" "18:33:54" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: Evil Clones" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 506 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11260 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11242 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id 4FOBa20586; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Evil Clones Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:33:54 EDT Has anyone noticed that Kelly has been replaced by a clone? It is fairly obvious, the new Kelly uses a different e-mail program and knows how to spell...now the only question is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing! Lee Parker :) Sorry I'm stuck using a very old computer that can only support a very old mail program. Other then a couple times when I type things at work (with its spell checker) I can't think of how my spelling could have changed. But I'll try to undo it. ;) Kelly From VM Tue Apr 13 15:59:22 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["19633" "Tuesday" "13" "April" "1999" "17:34:31" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "333" "starship-design: Interplanetary Propulsion (was VASIMR)" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 19633 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA15472 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15444 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p430.gnt.com [204.49.91.238]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA00478 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:41:36 -0500 Message-ID: <002e01be85fd$cc972470$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: Interplanetary Propulsion (was VASIMR) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:34:31 -0500 The Grand Challenge: A New Plasma Thruster Samuel A. Cohen and Michael A. Paluszek Manned Mars mission. The top plot shows total vehicle mass including the 100,000-kilogram payload. The second plot shows the maneuver duration and the bottom plot shows the thrust generated by the thruster. The minimum mission duration is obtained with a specific impulse near 3000 seconds. Other figures referenced in text can be found in the print version of Launchspace Magazine. Visionary leaders at NASA have set "Grand Challenge" goals for America's space program. Among the ambitious candidate missions are comprehensive explorations of the solar system and manned ventures to remote planets. For these types of missions to be practicable, rocket engines are required to have larger exhaust velocities, greater efficiencies and more reliability than those currently available. A novel plasma thruster design offers great promise for providing these revolutionary advances in propulsion technology. Advanced electric propulsion systems, both ion and plasma thrusters, have been developed over recent years because of their high propellant exhaust velocity, ue. The presently available high-ue systems, however, produce too low a thrust for many of the Grand Challenge missions. Here, we describe technical features that make a new plasma thruster design a revolutionary step beyond the existing systems and able to provide a propulsion method scaleable to more demanding Grand Challenge missions. The primary innovative technical features are the wave-heating mode, thrust-generation mechanism and the technique for decoupling the exhaust plume from the engine. These are predicted to result in more than an order-of-magnitude increase in thrust, while also significantly extending specific impulse, Isp = ue /g (where g is the gravitational acceleration, 9.8 m2/s), thruster life and reliability. Electromagnetic waves heat a fully ionized gas that is confined by a super-conducting magnetic coil and expelled through a magnetic nozzle. The novel nozzle in this design is a constriction in the plasma flow channel set by shaping (tapering) the magnetic field rather than a material surface. Magnetic fields strongly inhibit charged particle motion perpendicular to them while allowing easy flow parallel to the field lines. This reduces plasma contact with nearby materials, considerably extending their lifetime. Plasma expanding through the magnetic nozzle is accelerated to supersonic speed by a strong electric field that develops in the nozzle. In the expansion process, plasma cooling occurs; if sufficiently rapid, the plasma will recombine into a supersonic stream of neutral gas. Neutral particles are free of the magnetic force. Proper shaping of the magnetic nozzle subsequent to the recombination zone will generate a small angle exhaust plume, increasing thrust efficiency. This propulsion concept can lead to high-thrust, high-specific-impulse propulsion systems that could grow in capability over a 40-year period. A fusion power reactor could be incorporated as the direct-drive power source, if scientists are able to produce a working fusion reactor. Before describing these technical features in more detail, we give a comparison of the parameters of this novel thruster with existing electric propulsion methods. Figure 2 shows the thrust, T, and specific impulse, Isp, of various electric propulsion methods, including the proposed wave-heated thruster (WHT). In terms of thrust and power capability, the closest competitor to the WHT is the Magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) thruster. In MPD thrusters, strong currents flow between electrodes in the plasma. The most promising fuel for MPD thrusters is lithium. However, lithium presents a contamination problem to the rest of the spacecraft. Even though lithium is the best of all fuels in this regard, plasma contact with the electrodes causes them to degrade, limiting the thruster lifetime and mission duration. Hall thrusters, now used on satellites, have somewhat less severe electrode degradation but produce lower thrust. These two configurations use magnetic fields to increase the plasma density. Their magnetic fields are oriented perpendicular to the plasma exhaust; electrical currents are driven along the magnetic field, between electrodes, to heat and accelerate the plasma. This is a surface power input method, a major difference from the WHT and one reason why these thrusters are difficult to scale to the higher powers needed for certain Grand Challenge missions. In the WHT, plasma flow and thrust are generated by the plasma pressure gradient parallel to the magnetic field. There are no electrodes in contact with plasma to degrade. The magnetic field forms an insulating barrier between the plasma and the surrounding material surfaces. (The "thermal insulation" provided by this magnetic field shape exceeds that of Styrofoam.) The WHT can potentially produce higher thrust/specific impulse products than the other systems on the graph, to a large degree, because of the high densities achievable with the confinement properties of the specific magnetic field configuration of the method, a wave-heated magnetic mirror configuration. Maximizing Thrust Many wave-heated plasma systems have operated with similar magnetic geometry to that in the WHT. None has employed a feature essential for space propulsion applications: a method for decoupling the plasma exhaust from the magnetic field. Without this feature, plasma expelled from the rear of the spacecraft will follow magnetic field lines back to the nose of the spacecraft, counterbalancing the thrust. In this specific WHT design, the decoupling is achieved by causing plasma cooling and recombination - ions combining with electrons to produce neutral atoms - in the expansion zone of the magnetic nozzle. Other decoupling methods may be possible, such as asymmetric magnetic nozzles, but analyses of these predict lower efficiencies in converting input energy into thrust. The main advantages of the WHT are: higher power capability, because of volumetric heating; higher plasma density, because of better plasma confinement produced by the magnetic geometry; and ability to use a magnetic nozzle for plasma cooling and recombination, because of the linear magnetic-field geometry. An important consideration for Grand Challenge missions is the power available to the thruster. Large thrust and high specific impulse require high power. Power levels up to 20 kW will be available on near-term commercial satellites. Power levels up to hundreds of kilowatts may be feasible using multijunction and concentrator solar photovoltaic technology or solar dynamic systems using heat engines. If the power source is solar, then large solar collector areas, and possibly high pointing accuracy and tight figure control of the solar collectors, are required. Megawatt power levels could be supplied for extended periods by an external fission or fusion reactor. Both make consideration of radiation and environmental effects essential. In an internal fusion-powered option, the application of high-power RF would ionize the mixture in the WHT chamber, form a reversed-field configuration (FRC) there and heat the fuel to fusion temperatures. The FRC is an intrinsically high-beta plasma, favorable to the use of advanced (neutronless) fuels. (Beta, b, is the ratio of plasma thermal energy to magnetic field energy.) Recent research has shown more potential for p-11B fusion than earlier predicted. In an optimal FRC fusion reactor, a mixture of boron and hydrogen is injected into the FRC. Fusion creates energetic helium, which further heats the fuel, sustaining the burn. Plasma crosses the FRC's closed flux surface, flows along the open magnetic field lines to the nozzle and exits there, providing thrust, as shown in Figure 3. The FRC requires a solenoid-shaped magnetic field, the same geometry needed by the wave thruster and the magnetic nozzle. These factors make the FRC the most attractive fusion reactor from an engineering perspective. Many of the components are common to both the nearer (non-fusion) and longer-term (fusion) propulsion systems. As a consequence, development of the wave-heated plasma thruster will create technology that will be directly applicable to future fusion propulsion systems. Wave-heated plasma propulsion This novel thruster differs from earlier wave-heated thermal thrusters in that it employs a confined, fully ionized warm plasma, a strong axial magnetic field and a magnetic nozzle with large expansion. Wave heating in this field geometry is a volumetric method; that is, waves launched from antennas at the plasma's edge propagate deep within the plasma before their energy is absorbed. This reduces the power loads on and losses to the surrounding structures. Five different frequency ranges are candidates for wave heating: electron cyclotron (EC), lower hybrid (LH), helicon, ion cyclotron (IC) and rotating magnetic field (RMF). Although a thruster must produce high-velocity ions, apparently favoring the IC method, acceleration in the proposed thruster design is caused by the nozzle's electric field. This converts electron thermal energy into directed ion momentum. Thus, there is no clear reason yet for selecting one candidate from the others. Indeed, the optimal choice may change with each mission's specific requirements. For thruster parameters noted in Figure 2, a plasma density of 5 x 1014 cm3 is needed at an electron temperature of ~20 eV. For hydrogen propellant, this would provide a thrust of about 2 x 104 N per m2 of nozzle area. The magnetic field required by each is similar, between 1 and 5 kG. The low end is set by the plasma b requirements. The upper end may be more practical by easing antenna design. The nozzle magnetic field strength is about 10 times higher than that needed by the heating method. Even 50 kG field strengths are readily achievable by present-day superconductor technology. High-temperature superconductors would improve the attractiveness of the engines by reducing the cooling requirements. Table 1: Candidate RF and mwave modes for heating plasmas for thruster applications Mode EC LH Helicon RMF IC Approximate frequency (GHz) 2.5-10 0.5-2.5 0.1-0.5 0.3-100 0.03-10 Temperatures achieved (eV) 20 5 3 20 5 Densities achieved (cm-3 ) 5 x 1012 1 x 1014 1 x 1014 1 x 1014 1 x 1013 Ionization fraction (%) 50 90 50 10 10 The LH system has achieved more than 90% ionization, primarily because of the high density and controlled startup procedures. This is desirable for improved fuel utilization efficiency. (The RMF has yet to achieve a high ionization fraction because of the low magnetic fields used and the high fill pressures necessary with the traditional plasma formation procedures.) With improved operational techniques, all the candidate frequencies are likely to produce full ionization at high power. The main question is whether they can also produce the proper electron temperatures within the plasma - temperatures that produce high thrust without compromising the recombination properties of the nozzle. The achieved parameters shown in Table 1 were at relatively low power, typically 0.5-3 kW. The only exception was RMF, which needed higher power because of the enhanced losses and high fill pressure. Extending the database for each heating mode to higher power is needed and one of the technical objectives to be addressed by research and development efforts. Scalability, i.e., achievable plasma parameters versus nozzle radius, is another subject that must be addressed by R&D. The overall energy efficiency of this method will depend on the product of the usual factors: the efficiency for converting power from the spacecraft power source to the wave power supply; the coupling of the wave power to the plasma; the power lost to the thruster structures by radiation and plasma conduction; and the frozen-in power loss. The choice of propellant is particularly important for determining the frozen-in losses. Magnetic nozzle: thrust and plasma recombination The axial magnetic field used by these wave-heating methods allows both ions and electrons to be exhausted along B. As noted, the nozzle generates the thrust by converting random electron thermal motion into directed ion motion in the nozzle's electric field. Strong electric fields have been found in many mirror machines, such as studied in the fusion program. Potential drops of kilovolts were obtained, very good for ion acceleration. As we shall soon see, this was too large to allow recombination. Contrary to Mae West's statement, too much of a good thing was too much. In 1995, a steep electric field of approximately the proper strength, ~ 10 eV/cm, was discovered in a linear plasma device in our Princeton University laboratory. This was accomplished by collision cooling of the plasma electrons, rather than by magnetic expansion cooling. The remarkable observation associated with this modest electric field was rapid plasma recombination to neutral gas, something not attained in the hotter fusion magnetic mirror experiments. This brings us to the major conceptual leap provided by the magnetic nozzle. The question arose, how can the plasma exhaust be decoupled from the strong magnetic field? In an axially symmetric magnetic nozzle, the plasma is constrained to follow the field lines, even for high plasma dielectric constant, 8pmnc2/B2. (This is in contrast to the flow of a plasma slab across a magnetic field with simple, one-dimensional curvature.) A resolution to this vexing problem is to cause sufficient plasma cooling in the nozzle expansion that recombination transforms the plasma exhaust into a supersonic stream of neutral gas. Figure 4 shows that cooling to temperatures below ~ 1 eV (11,600 K) is necessary to get rapid recombination. Expansion from a nozzle results in cooling and acceleration. There is a direct relation between the cooling and the Mach number achieved by a nozzle. Our calculations show that the recombination rate coefficient increases with Mach number approximately proportional to M3 for g=5/3 and proportional to M5 for g=2, where g is the usual ratio of specific heats. By examining the calculated Mach number as a function of magnetic field expansion we predict that nearly complete recombination can be generated by a magnetic expansion of 50 for g=2 or 1000 for g=5/3 (g is expected to be between 5/3 and 2 for a magnetized monatomic plasma of initial density 1 x 1014 cm-3). How did the Princeton experiment show extensive recombination? The plasma appeared as different as night from day. Recombining plasmas are characterized by emission of intense light with a special spectral signature. Warm plasma, viewed through a window of the linear apparatus, flows from left to right. As the plasma cools from 50,000 K to 10,000 K, its brightness dramatically increases. Detailed analysis of the spectrum showed this could be quantitatively explained by three-body recombination. A critical aspect of the thruster design is the selection of the fuel. At Te < 1 eV, helium has the most rapid three-body recombination rate of all the singly charged monatomic ions. However, its high ionization potential unfavorably increases the frozen-in losses. Other inert gases like xenon are much better in that regard, but have relatively low second-ionization potentials. The optimal fuel will depend on the overall plasma temperature and plasma confinement time. R&D are essential for selecting the optimal electron temperature, hence wave-heating method and plasma shape. Propulsion system designs Two candidate WHT operating points are described to illustrate the potential of this engine. The first, at 30 kW power, is for a reusable transfer orbit vehicle for low Earth orbit operations. The second, at 30 MW power, is for interplanetary and trans-lunar operations. The 30 kW mission is an orbit transfer mission from a 400-kilometer orbit to a 2000-kilometer orbit, including a return mission with the full payload. The low Earth mission is shown in Figure 7. A thruster with this power level could also be used as a drag makeup thruster on the International Space Station. It would be difficult to perform the drag makeup mission or the reusable upper stage with other electric thrusters due to their relatively short lifetimes. Two missions are shown for the 30 MW thruster. One is a manned Mars mission. The second is a near-sun flyby for an interstellar mission. The Mars mission assumes a 100,000-kilogram payload, including the propulsion system. The minimum one-way travel time is about two months, which is a reasonable amount from an operational cost and radiation dose standpoint. The power for this mission would need to come from a nuclear reactor, which could be the internal fusion reactor described above. The spacecraft for the interstellar mission is inserted into an elliptical heliocentric orbit with its perigee close to the sun. The idea is to perform all of the delta-V near perigee to get an additional boost due to the sun's gravity well and to take advantage of the high solar flux at that distance. The plots show a numerical simulation of the mission in which the propulsion system produces a 40 km/second delta-V. The final velocity is in excess of 100 km per second and it passes the orbit of Jupiter 160 days after injection into the elliptical Earth/sun transfer orbit. The specific impulse is held constant at 2500 seconds and the thrust is allowed to vary up to the limit of the available power. This trajectory is by no means optimal, nor does it account for thruster limitations. Numerous advanced electric propulsion concepts have been developed over recent years because of higher propellant exhaust velocity, me, compared to chemical systems. The wave-heating method, thrust-generation mechanism, decoupling of plasma from magnetic fields and scalability make the WHT system a significant advance over existing electric thruster concepts. Wave-heated plasma propulsion is a revolutionary concept that could be used in the short term to produce a high-thrust, high specific-impulse electric thruster and could incorporate a fusion propulsion, if a practical one is ultimately developed. It is in an early stage of development. Considerable effort will be required before a prototype is ready for flight. Samuel A. Cohen received a Ph.D. in Physics from MIT in 1973. He has been at the Princeton University Plasma Physics Laboratory ever since, now serving as a lecturer with rank of professor in the Astrophysical Sciences Department and director of the Program in Plasma Science and Technology in the School of Engineering and Applied Science. Mr. Michael Paluszek is the founder of Princeton Satellite Systems, Inc. He received his S.B. degree from MIT in Electrical Engineering in 1976 and his E.A.A. and S.M. degrees from MIT in Aeronautics and Astronautics in 1979. In 1986 he joined GE Astro Space, where he led the design of the attitude control systems for GPS IIR, Inmarsat 3, GGS Polar Platform and the Mars Observer Delta-V mode. His current research includes collaborative work with the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory on advanced plasma thrusters and the development of artificial intelligence techniques for embedded systems. © 1997-1999 Launchspace Publications. Please send any questions or comments for Launchspace via our feedback page. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do. - B.F. Skinner From VM Tue Apr 13 16:09:22 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1311" "Tuesday" "13" "April" "1999" "18:33:39" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "35" "starship-design: Re: Your great web site" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1311 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22620 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22609 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id iJMBa15547; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4b80235d.24452043@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: billy_man@hotmail.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Your great web site Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:33:39 EDT > Subj: Your great web site > Date: Sun, Apr 11, 1999 11:55 AM EST > From: billy_man@hotmail.com > X-From: stoianb@sl.bia-bg.com (Stoian Belchev) > Reply-to: billy_man@hotmail.com > To: KellySt@aol.com > > Hi Guys, > You turned out to have a great site on the net! No kidding. > It's very interesting and helpful for people. Thanks, glad you liked. > A have a problem and surfing on the net I decided to > drop you a line and see if you can help me. Would you > please continue reading this message to the end? > OK, I am researching (nothing scientific) how the > Moon influences people. Not only the different zodiacs > but a large mass of people. I am trying to find the > relation between the Moon and the History of all > mankind. Can You help me in any way? As soon as you said zodiacs I was tempted to dump the letter. Astrology has been conclusively shown to have no validity, and beyound people suggestability, no effect. There are medical effects of the moon (we evolved to sync lots of our actions to full moon, etc) and of course lots of political military events are effected by a full moon of light at night, but it doesn't sound like your interested in that. So I don't think we can help you. > If you are interested, just reply to billy_man@hotmail.com Kelly Starks From VM Tue Apr 13 16:22:52 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["592" "Tuesday" "13" "April" "1999" "18:10:39" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "22" "RE: starship-design: Evil Clones" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 592 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02603 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02560 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p405.gnt.com [204.49.91.213]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA05157 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:17:55 -0500 Message-ID: <003201be8602$d8c07260$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: Evil Clones Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:10:39 -0500 NO! No, No No! We like the evil clone! Please don't undo it! Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: KellySt@aol.com [mailto:KellySt@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 5:34 PM > To: lparker@cacaphony.net; starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: Re: starship-design: Evil Clones > > Sorry I'm stuck using a very old computer that can only support a > very old > mail program. Other then a couple times when I type things at > work (with its > spell checker) I can't think of how my spelling could have > changed. But I'll > try to undo it. > > ;) > > Kelly > From VM Tue Apr 13 16:30:22 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["609" "Tuesday" "13" "April" "1999" "19:11:35" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "13" "Re: Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 609 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07102 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07066 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id rVFCa21406; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6abb1665.24452927@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: jthunderbird@nternet.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:11:35 EDT >===Is what we really want, a super cannon so cheap to > build that Mauritania can have all the satellites it > wants? The threshold for non shall we say governmental > institutions, e.g. gangs, to have hypervelocity artillery, > is crossed long before the smallest nations put up their > peaceful scientific payloads. == Interesting. That was the same logic the White House and DOD used to stop funding of low cost launcher studies. The high cost of access to space keeps the lessor natinos and groups out of the big guys battle space. NOt the best reason in the world to lock a frountier. Kelly From VM Wed Apr 14 09:53:58 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["833" "Wednesday" "14" "April" "1999" "14:25:54" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "20" "Re: Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 833 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA10716 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10705 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA22493; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:25:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199904141225.OAA22493@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:25:54 +0200 (MET DST) > From: KellySt@aol.com > > >===Is what we really want, a super cannon so cheap to > > build that Mauritania can have all the satellites it > > wants? The threshold for non shall we say governmental > > institutions, e.g. gangs, to have hypervelocity artillery, > > is crossed long before the smallest nations put up their > > peaceful scientific payloads. == > > Interesting. That was the same logic the White House and DOD used to stop > funding of low cost launcher studies. The high cost of access to space keeps > the lessor natinos and groups out of the big guys battle space. NOt the best > reason in the world to lock a frountier. > I fully agree with Kelly here. Sorry for possible breach of netiquette with such an "one-liner", but I have thought it important to state my opinion on this issue. -- Zenon Kulpa From VM Thu Apr 15 10:22:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3290" "Wednesday" "14" "April" "1999" "21:49:09" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "80" "starship-design: Re: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3290 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03746 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03696 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id 5TVJa17660; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1c14318b.24469f95@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: jdavis@crcom.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: starship design Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:49:09 EDT Hi Timothy, Sounds like you have some good ideas. You might want to join the group to discus them. I'll comment on a couple points here and forward the message to the group. > Fusion drives can convert only about 1% of the mass of > their fuel into energy. Actually its usually less then 1/2 to 1/3rd of that. > This means That a direct thrust fusion drive can attain > a maximium exchaust velocity of abot 10% of light > speed. The velocity attained by a rocket is = to the > exchaust velocity tiimes the natural logarithim of > the mass ratio. A mass fraction per stage of about 5-1 > is the most that is realistic. == Here we disagree. In space the mass ratio of a stage can be expanded to rediculas degrees. I assumed a Lithium-6 fuel cycle since the stuf has a lot of power and is a stable structural metal. With no tank required you could have a fuel mass ratio of 100's. Your acceleration rate would suffer, but you could do it, and for a starship you would need too! > == A fusion rocket stage with an exchaust velocity of .1c > and a mass ratio of 5-1 burns out at 16% of light > velocity. A two (5-1) stage fusion rocket is required > to reach .32c. A three( 5-1) stage fusion rocket can > reach .48c. The maximium delta v availible on a > roundtrip mission is thus .12c. A one way decelerated > mission could reach .24 c. == I think I figured a 50-1 ratio would give you about a .4c delta V. Hence things like fuel/sail or explorer where external sources of fuel/thrust were used to provide half the delta-v, and they needed to refuel in the target system. I.E. we'll need a big telescope array to verify a good fuel ore bed in system orbit!! > ==There are 2 types of fusion pulse rockets that could > be used in this way.These are an Orion class fusion > nuclear pulse rocket which detonates a sequance of > multimegaton h-bombs behind an inertial plate or a > deadalus class nuclear pulse rocket. To make a practical > deadalus class system requires the use of lithium > hydride fuel pellets with a mass of 1mg to 1gm per > pellet. To theorecticly induce fusion in the pellets > lasers beams of the following power level are > required. A 1mg pellet needs to be zapped with at > least a 500 kilowatt laser discharge to heat it up > to 200,000,000 centigrade and cause fusion reactions > to even theoreticly occurr. A 1 gm pellet requires > a laser discharge of at least 500,000,000 watts to > heat it up to 200,000,000 centigrade.Also the pellets > should be in the shape of disks so that 2 laser beams > can zap them simultaneusly on the top and the > bottom of the pellets to heat them up. Well there are other configurations, but I agree pulse fusion systems are a good idea. > You would also need a superconducting 10 tesla > electromagnetic nozzle and a couple of large nuclear > fission reactors capable of generating 500kw to 500 mw > of electric power per reactor. === Ah you can use the fusion reactors to produce some power. You'ld need some power for start up, or for base load during the mission. > ===I have many starship designs of many kinds. > Nuclear electric ramjets and rockets are not the > only starship designs that I have. > > Timothy J. Mayes Send them on to the group. Kelly From VM Thu Apr 15 10:22:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1169" "Wednesday" "14" "April" "1999" "21:49:17" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "32" "Re: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1169 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05705 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05681 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id zUKJa20586 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5c24880b.24469f9d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:49:17 EDT >> From: KellySt@aol.com >> >> >===Is what we really want, a super cannon so cheap to >> > build that Mauritania can have all the satellites it >> > wants? The threshold for non shall we say governmental >> > institutions, e.g. gangs, to have hypervelocity artillery, >> > is crossed long before the smallest nations put up their >> > peaceful scientific payloads. == >> >> Interesting. That was the same logic the White House >> and DOD used to stop funding of low cost launcher >> studies. The high cost of access to space keeps >> the lessor natinos and groups out of the big guys >> battle space. Not the best >> reason in the world to lock a frountier. > >I fully agree with Kelly here. > > Sorry for possible breach of netiquette with such > an "one-liner", but I have thought it important to > state my opinion on this issue. > > -- Zenon Kulpa Thank you. Actually the logic kinda scares me the more I think about it. Don't built the space craft because it could be misused. The same logic would have canceled aircraft, household cleners, computers. Worries me when that kind of attitude gets seriously listened to in areas of power. Kelly From VM Thu Apr 15 10:22:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1904" "Thursday" "15" "April" "1999" "01:05:14" "-0400" "Paul Anderson" "madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net" nil "37" "Re: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1904 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA04412 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bootes.ebtech.net (root@bootes.ebtech.net [206.152.142.12]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04404 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bootes.ebtech.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id BAA19537; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:55:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (madhobby@localhost) by geeky1.ebtech.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id BAA28976; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:05:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5c24880b.24469f9d@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Paul Anderson From: Paul Anderson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:05:14 -0400 (EDT) On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > Actually the logic kinda scares me the more I think about it. Don't built > the space craft because it could be misused. > What people must realise is that no one can stop science. When it is time for something to be invented, no one can stop it's invention. Also, you can never keep someone from developing a technology that you already have. Consider the situation of, oh, Albania - say they wanted to build a nuclear weapon. Even if they couldn't hire an accomplished physicist, and obtain the documentation that was churned out when this stuff was being first pioneered, they could still build one. It's simply a matter of time and money. When you think about it, when guys like Oppenheimer started building the a-bomb, they didn't have the documentation. They didn't know how to build a nuke, but they figured it out for themselves. What makes them so special that they would be the only people on the planet that could come up with this? IMHO, I don't think that LEO-capable missiles are all that important, anyways. They're complex, difficult to guide, hard to build, and a nuisance to launch. How many missiles has NATO used against the Serbs that went up 60km, waited a half-hour then dropped back down on the enemy's head? Why do that, with the difficulties of aiming, when you can just fly in a high-speed jet, and very quickly drop a bomb on your target. When you think about it, what tactical use would such a device have? On it's way down, if the enemy has jets(who doesn't these days?), they would have plenty of time to shoot the sucker down. I admit I'm not an expert in military tactics, so explain to me how a missile capable of LEO would be more useful, cheaper and more effective than just flying in a jet, and dropping a bomb? --- Paul Anderson madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net "We have learned to imitute you exarctly." From VM Thu Apr 15 10:22:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1922" "Thursday" "15" "April" "1999" "06:37:53" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "38" "RE: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1922 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA20285 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA20274 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p225.gnt.com [204.49.89.225]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA18007; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:44:53 -0500 Message-ID: <001801be8734$663f34a0$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Paul Anderson" Cc: "Starship-Design" Subject: RE: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:37:53 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Paul > Anderson > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 12:05 AM > To: KellySt@aol.com > Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: Re: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... > IMHO, I don't think that LEO-capable missiles are all that important, > anyways. They're complex, difficult to guide, hard to build, and a > nuisance to launch. How many missiles has NATO used against the Serbs > that went up 60km, waited a half-hour then dropped back down on the > enemy's head? Why do that, with the difficulties of aiming, when you can > just fly in a high-speed jet, and very quickly drop a bomb on your target. > When you think about it, what tactical use would such a device have? On > it's way down, if the enemy has jets(who doesn't these days?), they would > have plenty of time to shoot the sucker down. I admit I'm not an expert > in military tactics, so explain to me how a missile capable of LEO would > be more useful, cheaper and more effective than just flying in a jet, and > dropping a bomb? Paul, I would suggest reading the US Air Force's Space Forecast report. Or search for Project Black Horse. The US Air Force apparently not only sees the value of low Earth orbit capable missiles, they think a manned vehicle capable of delivery payloads from low Earth orbit would be even better. As for tactical use, Albania can not dispatch a jet as you suggest to drop a bomb on the US. Their MiGs don't have the range and they don't have tankers. So such a system would definitely be of tactical value to them. As Kelly points out, building a nuclear bomb is actually rather easy now that we know it can be done. Building a biological weapon is even easier, all that is missing is a delivery vehicle, and we have been building missiles for a long time. Lee Parker From VM Thu Apr 15 10:22:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4792" "Thursday" "15" "April" "1999" "08:47:37" "-0500" "Johnny Thunderbird" "jthunderbird@nternet.com" nil "98" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4792 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17940 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.nternet.com ([207.204.32.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA17905 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 52 invoked by uid 506); 15 Apr 1999 13:46:26 -0000 Received: from pm3-12.nternet.com (HELO nternet.com) (207.204.32.212) by eagle.nternet.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 13:46:26 -0000 Message-ID: <3715EDF8.3B4DDC4F@nternet.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c24880b.24469f9d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Johnny Thunderbird From: Johnny Thunderbird Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:47:37 -0500 Uh, hey, look, I do too! Agree with Kelly, that is, and the rest of you who posted on this. KellySt@aol.com wrote: > >> From: KellySt@aol.com > >> > >> >===Is what we really want, a super cannon so cheap to > >> > build that Mauritania can have all the satellites it > >> > wants? The threshold for non shall we say governmental > >> > institutions, e.g. gangs, to have hypervelocity artillery, > >> > is crossed long before the smallest nations put up their > >> > peaceful scientific payloads. == > >> > >> Interesting. That was the same logic the White House > >> and DOD used to stop funding of low cost launcher > >> studies. The high cost of access to space keeps > >> the lessor natinos and groups out of the big guys > >> battle space. Not the best > >> reason in the world to lock a frountier. > > > >I fully agree with Kelly here. > > > > Sorry for possible breach of netiquette with such > > an "one-liner", but I have thought it important to > > state my opinion on this issue. > > > > -- Zenon Kulpa > > Thank you. > > Actually the logic kinda scares me the more I think about it. Don't built > the space craft because it could be misused. The same logic would have > canceled aircraft, household cleners, computers. Worries me when that kind > of attitude gets seriously listened to in areas of power. > > Kelly I feel that the economic barrier to space access is really kind of artificial. It's a cover for control games, basically played by the big power governments which now have space access. The problem is that the powers that be, don't want people to go far enough from their physical jurisdictions, that they might get out of control. So the big power instinct, is to fake a desire for a manned space program ( on any significant scale ), while actually operating clandestinely to prevent any activity which could result in spontaneous migration into space. Well, you know, it's just a guess. If you have to have a conspiracy theory, pick one that's obtuse and incomprehensible, so you don't worry people. SF for a long time worked over the thesis of governments restricting space travel to a privileged few. Then came the beatniks, and the hippies, with their real and persistent desire to be detatched beyond the reach of control and coercion. With the information revolution now a fact, odds are good someone will find a way to tunnel through the economic barrier, with the result that physical energy considerations, rather than economic illusions, will make up the bottleneck which limits the rate of human migration into the solar system. Want me to go over that again, and this time make sense? Low cost access to space, is a concept which has hooks to political and economic controversy. As its proponents, we would like to consider its simple, pristine elegance in isolation, for the good of humanity. Military interests, and their cronies, do not want individuals moving off Earth at will. Thus they will attempt to control the technology of orbital, and of deep space access. Only if the launch technique is so blatantly simple as to be inherently uncontrollable, will we get a portal to space in the forseeable future, a gateway through which large numbers of people can travel at will. That's why the Paper Cannon was developed. We may be hesitant to consider this as a man-rated launch system, but I for one, feel the same way about solid rockets, and did feel this way throughout the 26 Space Shuttle missions I worked on, STS-2 through Challenger. ( It's a bad idea to put people on solid rockets. You can't throttle them, and you can't turn them off. ) A basic characteristic of the Paper Cannon concept is its scalability. You can build it big, or you can build it small, and still make something go thataway real real fast. The military is not going to ignore that, not in our world. They will make a lot of popguns like this, which will cost them lots of money, so they will take reassurance that it's not all that cheap, after all. I know people don't like to hear about this kind of realism. I've been around the block a bit, and I think it's a pretty fair guess about people's reactions. The roots of conflict lie in our need to get to very high speed in order to escape Earth, and things that go very fast catch the eye of the military, who instinctively want to get them under their control. Only if the design is open and published work, in short an Internet project, can the military interests be completely foiled in their presumable desire to bury it. Follow all that? So please, don't attribute to me any desire to restrict space development. I have very much the opposite attitude, even though I wrote the paragraph everyone finds so misleading. Excuse me. per aspera ad astra, Johnny Thunderbird http://fly.to/heavyLight From VM Thu Apr 15 11:06:53 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4747" "Thursday" "15" "April" "1999" "11:01:49" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "101" "starship-design: administrivia: list policy update" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4747 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07352 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07299; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:01:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14102.10637.764016.7597@darkwing.uoregon.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Appended below is the latest list information that new subscribers will get when subscribing to the list or that you can get by mailing the command "info starship-design" to majordomo@lists.uoregon.edu. The main changes are some more explicit guidelines for posting (messages should be less than 40,000 characters and not contain binary or HTML attachments), and the addition of a paragraph describing conditions under which I may unsubscribe list members. I have occasionally had to unsubscribe addresses that began rejecting list postings persistently; in such cases if the address is bouncing mail then there's not much point to it being on the list and I have no way to contact the person at that address to let them know. The other clause about unsubscribing list members who are excessively disruptive to the list is one that I hope never to have to invoke. I want to emphasize that I did not add it because of anyone's past activity on the starship-design list; this mailing list is one of the most civil and consistently intelligent lists I have been on and you are an excellent group of people. However, as the list grows in size the possibility of such behavior increases, and I want to be able to make sure that the list remains topical and pleasant for its current and new subscribers. [Last updated on: Thu Apr 15 10:45:30 1999] Welcome to the starship-design mailing list! This mailing list is for anyone interested in the practical realities of interstellar travel. It is an outgrowth of David Levine's Lunar Institute of Technology web site, particularly the College of Starship Design section. The original forum hosted at that web site centered around the development of a hypothetical manned mission to the Tau Ceti star system by the year 2050. The current web page is at: http://www.urly-bird.com/LIT/ Although clearly there is much speculation involved in the development of future technology, this mailing list is practically oriented and proposals should be justifiable using presently-known engineering techniques and scientific knowledge. 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Archives of this list organized by month of posting are at: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~stevev/sd-archive/ ftp://ftp.efn.org/pub/users/stevev/starship-design/ From VM Fri Apr 16 11:25:23 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["637" "Friday" "16" "April" "1999" "00:44:18" "-0400" "Paul Anderson" "madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 637 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA18190 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bootes.ebtech.net (root@bootes.ebtech.net [206.152.142.12]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18184 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bootes.ebtech.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id BAA08733; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:41:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (madhobby@localhost) by geeky1.ebtech.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA02551; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:44:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3715EDF8.3B4DDC4F@nternet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Paul Anderson From: Paul Anderson Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Johnny Thunderbird cc: KellySt@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:44:18 -0400 (EDT) On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Johnny Thunderbird wrote: > With the information revolution now a fact, odds are good someone > will find a way to tunnel through the economic barrier, > Well, actually, I'm kind of involved in a project to do that sort of thing right now... The Lunaris Project is working towards putting an unmanned payload on the moon with volunteer effort. The website isn't entirely ready for primetime, but you can check it out at: http://www.lunaris.org Let me know if you have any questions about the project thus far... TTYL! --- Paul Anderson madhobby@geeky1.ebtech.net "We have learned to imitute you exarctly." From VM Fri Apr 16 11:25:23 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1227" "Thursday" "15" "April" "1999" "14:47:16" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1227 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA15729 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15626 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA23544; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:47:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199904151247.OAA23544@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:47:16 +0200 (MET DST) > From: KellySt@aol.com > > >> From: KellySt@aol.com > >> > >> >===Is what we really want, a super cannon so cheap to > >> > build that Mauritania can have all the satellites it > >> > wants? The threshold for non shall we say governmental > >> > institutions, e.g. gangs, to have hypervelocity artillery, > >> > is crossed long before the smallest nations put up their > >> > peaceful scientific payloads. == > >> > >> Interesting. That was the same logic the White House > >> and DOD used to stop funding of low cost launcher > >> studies. The high cost of access to space keeps > >> the lessor natinos and groups out of the big guys > >> battle space. Not the best reason in the world to lock a frountier. > > > > I fully agree with Kelly here. > > > > Sorry for possible breach of netiquette with such > > a "one-liner", but I have thought it important to > > state my opinion on this issue. > > > > -- Zenon Kulpa > > Thank you. > > Actually the logic kinda scares me the more I think about it. Don't built > the space craft because it could be misused. The same logic would have > canceled aircraft, household cleners, computers. > Do not forget the knife! -- Zenon [Pardon the one-liner again ;-)] From VM Fri Apr 16 16:06:38 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1561" "Friday" "16" "April" "1999" "19:03:30" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "43" "Re: Re: starship-design: build it now..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1561 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13737 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13727 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id zGXGa25515 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: build it now... Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:03:30 EDT > I feel that the economic barrier to space access > is really kind of artificial. It's a cover for control > games, basically played by the big power governments > which now have space access. The problem is that the > powers that be, don't want people to go far enough > from their physical jurisdictions, that they might > get out of control. So the big power instinct, is to > fake a desire for a manned space program ( on any > significant scale ), while actually operating > clandestinely to prevent any activity which could > result in spontaneous migration into space.=== > === With the information revolution now a fact, odds > are good someone will find a way to tunnel through > the economic barrier, with the result that physical > energy considerations, rather than economic illusions, > will make up the bottleneck which limits the rate > of human migration into the solar system.=== > === Only if the launch technique is so blatantly simple > as to be inherently uncontrollable, will we get a portal > to space in the forseeable future, a gateway through > which large numbers of people can travel at will.=== > > Johnny Thunderbird Ah, your kinda contradicting yourself. If economics is a sham, why do folks need to tunnel past it? Realistically economics is THE issue. Technology is fairly simple and well known, but no ones come up with a pressing and profitable reason to do it. We're a wash in resources here, no places out there look like a great place to live, all teched up and no where to go. Kelly From VM Fri Apr 16 16:08:00 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["337" "Friday" "16" "April" "1999" "19:03:54" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<262f1d8a.24491bda@aol.com>" "9" "Re: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 337 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13711 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13706 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id zLQGa12155 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:03:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <262f1d8a.24491bda@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:03:54 EDT > Appended below is the latest list information that > new subscribers will get when subscribing to the > list or that you can Looks good to me. You probably want to list the main LIT site at University of North Carolina though. Kevin doesn't seem very active, and may be more likely to drop the site then the university. Kelly From VM Fri Apr 16 16:52:33 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["503" "Friday" "16" "April" "1999" "16:51:31" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "13" "Re: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 503 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01750 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01738; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14103.52483.124019.396220@darkwing.uoregon.edu> In-Reply-To: <262f1d8a.24491bda@aol.com> References: <262f1d8a.24491bda@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > > Appended below is the latest list information that > > new subscribers will get when subscribing to the > > list or that you can > > Looks good to me. You probably want to list the main LIT site at University > of North Carolina though. Kevin doesn't seem very active, and may be more > likely to drop the site then the university. > > Kelly I've updated the info message with pointers to the original pages at unc.edu and Kevin's pages at urly-bird.com. From VM Mon Apr 19 11:18:01 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["585" "Saturday" "17" "April" "1999" "13:23:15" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "19" "Re: Re: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 585 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02501 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02496 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id sFAKa24974; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <734e4528.244a1d83@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: administrivia: list policy update Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:23:15 EDT >KellySt@aol.com writes: > > > Appended below is the latest list information that > > > new subscribers will get when subscribing to the > > > list or that you can > > > > Looks good to me. You probably want to list the main LIT site at University > > of North Carolina though. Kevin doesn't seem very active, and may be more > > likely to drop the site then the university. > > > > Kelly > I've updated the info message with pointers to the original > pages at unc.edu and Kevin's pages at urly-bird.com. Ok, great. Thanks again for your work admining the list! Kelly From VM Mon Apr 19 11:18:01 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2251" "Saturday" "17" "April" "1999" "13:23:25" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "62" "starship-design: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2251 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09609 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09599 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id zDGKa25515; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4dae12a8.244a1d8d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_4dae12a8.244a1d8d_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, jdavis@crcom.net Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:23:25 EDT --part1_4dae12a8.244a1d8d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As to your "The fastest rocket that can be created is a an antimatter rocket" thats a bit inaccurate. The fastest possible exaust velocity yes, but the fastest rocket statment assumes some engineering considerations. How much does the engine weigh? The fuel tanks? How much fuel can you carry? Just a nit. Kelly --part1_4dae12a8.244a1d8d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (rly-yb03.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.3]) by air-yb01.mx.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:38:27 -0400 Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id VAA29926 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xroadstx.com (max05-48.crcom.net [208.234.65.249]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18233 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:38:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3717E4EA.2751028F@xroadstx.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:33:30 -0500 From: Janice Davis Reply-To: jdavis@crcom.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KellySt@aol.com Subject: Re: starship design References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The fastest rocket that can be created is a an antimatter rocket in most cases. If you wish a better performance then is provided by non relatavistic fusion rockets, this is best done with a type of antimatter rocket called a pion rocket. This pion rocket mixs protons, and antiprotons in equal quantitys, and annhilates them creating pi mesons which are expelled through a magnetic nozzle at .94 of light speed. I have designs for pion rockets. I also have designs for nuclear electric rockets which generate a beam of relatavistic protons or ions with particle accelerators, and expell it to propell themselves. Timothy j mayes These proton rockets may have exchaust velocitys of 90 percent of light speed or more. Timothy J. Mayes --part1_4dae12a8.244a1d8d_boundary-- From VM Mon Apr 19 11:18:01 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["781" "Saturday" "17" "April" "1999" "22:54:36" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "Kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "19" "starship-design: Urly-Bird.com LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 781 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA16485 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web12.ntx.net (web12.ntx.net [209.1.144.158]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16474 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from liberty (wf-1-15.wavefront.com [204.73.244.145]) by web12.ntx.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA13802 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19990417224228.01abb100@www.urly-bird.com> X-Sender: web121aa@www.urly-bird.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Urly-Bird.com LIT site. Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:54:36 -0500 Hi all, Lately there has been some concern that the LIT urly-bird site might have to go to data heaven. There is no need worry. My web hosting business is not going very well, and I have shut it down. But I will be keeping the domain name, and I will continue to pay the server fees. As long as I have a web server, LIT will have a site. This is my gift to the group. I have been very busy of late with my other passion (the Libertarian party of Minnesota) I meant to reply on-list to these concerns, but instead, sent it directly to Kelly. D'Oh! Kelly has volunteered to do a little work on the web site, and if anyone else would like to help him, I'm sure he would appreciate it. Since it is my web site, you will have to get the password from me. Sincerely, Kevin From VM Mon Apr 19 11:18:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1213" "Sunday" "18" "April" "1999" "11:00:36" "-0600" "ben franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "36" "starship-design: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1213 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09933 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09911 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (dialin44.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.44]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA10581 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:01:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904181701.LAA10581@main.jetnet.ab.ca> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "ben franchuk" From: "ben franchuk" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "star" Subject: starship-design: Re: starship design Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:00:36 -0600 ---------- > From: Janice Davis > To: KellySt@aol.com > Subject: Re: starship design > Date: April 16, 1999 7:33 PM > > The fastest rocket that can be created is a an antimatter rocket in most > cases. > If you wish a better performance then is provided by non relatavistic > fusion rockets, > this is best done with a type of antimatter rocket called a pion rocket. > This pion rocket mixs protons, and antiprotons in equal quantitys, and > annhilates them creating pi > mesons which are expelled through a magnetic nozzle at .94 of light > speed. I have designs for pion rockets. I also have designs for nuclear > electric rockets which generate > a beam of relatavistic protons or ions with particle accelerators, and > expell it to propell themselves. > Timothy j mayes > > These proton rockets may have exchaust velocitys of 90 percent of light > speed or more. > Timothy J. Mayes > Being a great fan of autodynamics ( but lacking great math skills ) I wonder if .94 C is the best escape velocity. If I remember right from the web site, anything over about .75C the momentum of the particle decreases so thrust would be lost after that point. Other than that it sounds great. From VM Mon Apr 19 11:18:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1249" "Sunday" "18" "April" "1999" "23:22:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "33" "Re: starship-design:" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1249 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22265 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.53]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22257 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem2422.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.137.118]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA13015 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:23:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990418232256.0068b8e8@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:22:56 +0100 In reply to Ben Franchuk's message >> These proton rockets may have exchaust velocitys of 90 percent of light >> speed or more. >> Timothy J. Mayes >> > >Being a great fan of autodynamics ( but lacking great math skills ) >I wonder if .94 C is the best escape velocity. If I remember right from the >web site, anything over about .75C the momentum of the particle decreases >so thrust would be lost after that point. Other than that it sounds great. A few questions: - Escape velocity from what? The Earth, the Solar system....? - "The best" regarding what parameter? Money, Fuel, Efficiency...? You must be mistaken, about 0.75 c isn't a magic number where physics breaks down. The momentum of a particle goes up when its velocity goes up, even relativity agrees with that. You might mean that the efficiency of the fuel usage decreases when the exhaust velocity exceeds a certain speed. This is true for self-fuelled designs, but that particular exhaust speed depends on the kind of fuel, the efficiency of the engine and the final velocity of the starship. For fusion designs this optimal exhaust velocity is rather low (but still high compared to todays technology), usually less than 6% of the light speed. Timothy (van der Linden) From VM Mon Apr 19 11:33:08 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["426" "Monday" "19" "April" "1999" "12:25:36" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "11" "Re: starship-design:" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 426 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA02234 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02174 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin35.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.35]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27706; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:26:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371B8330.6A88B654@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3.0.1.32.19990418232256.0068b8e8@pop.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Timothy van der Linden , "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:25:36 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > You must be mistaken, about 0.75 c isn't a magic number where physics > breaks down. The momentum of a particle goes up when its velocity goes up, > even relativity agrees with that. > Here is the Autodynamics web site, if you wish to check the momentem equation. The theory based on relativity but a 20th century viewpoint rather than Einstein's 19th century. http://www.autodynamics.org/ From VM Mon Apr 19 16:00:05 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["678" "Monday" "19" "April" "1999" "23:57:48" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "18" "Re: starship-design:" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 678 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12934 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12923 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem1188.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.132.164]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA08057 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:58:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990419235748.006c4d24@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <371B753D.82E4082F@worldnet.att.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990418232256.0068b8e8@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:57:48 +0100 Curtis, >> You might mean that the efficiency of the fuel usage decreases when the >> exhaust velocity exceeds a certain speed. This is true for self-fuelled >> designs, but that particular exhaust speed depends on the kind of fuel, the >> efficiency of the engine and the final velocity of the starship. >> For fusion designs this optimal exhaust velocity is rather low (but still >> high compared to todays technology), usually less than 6% of the light speed. >> >> Timothy (van der Linden) > >Perhaps Ben meant to say "exhaust velocity" instead of "escape velocity"; that >would follow the gist of his context. Right, Ben? I think I addressed that in the last paragraph. From VM Mon Apr 19 16:01:06 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["114" "Monday" "19" "April" "1999" "23:56:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "7" "starship-design: Autodynamics" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 114 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13311 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13240 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem1188.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.132.164]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA08050 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:58:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990419235643.006c2354@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <371B8330.6A88B654@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.1.32.19990418232256.0068b8e8@pop.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Autodynamics Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:56:43 +0100 Ben, >http://www.autodynamics.org/ Could you please be a bit more specific than just the home-address? Timothy From VM Mon Apr 19 17:54:25 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["303" "Monday" "19" "April" "1999" "20:50:40" "-0400" "Curtis L. Manges" "clmanges@worldnet.att.net" nil "11" "starship-design: new physics" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 303 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06991 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06981 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([208.254.58.8]) by mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with ESMTP id <19990420005124.DUFQ27112@worldnet.att.net> for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:51:24 +0000 Message-ID: <371BCF60.F26A0C4C@worldnet.att.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Curtis L. Manges" From: "Curtis L. Manges" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: new physics Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:50:40 -0400 I've found a website with an interesting theory of physics on it; it is: www.rideau.net/~gaasbeek/index.html/#contents This is sensible and credible, well-presented and easy to follow. I find the Autodynamics site inexcusably sloppy, though even AD is an improvement over SR. Give it a look. Curtis From VM Tue Apr 20 15:38:45 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["411" "Tuesday" "20" "April" "1999" "18:33:19" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "15" "starship-design: Re: Is there anyone still at this address?" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 411 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18712 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18681 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (300) by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id jGTAa06741; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <253b9172.244e5aaf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: mcortez@fullcoll.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Is there anyone still at this address? Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:33:19 EDT Wandering around a Lunar Institute of Technology.... Was wandering if you have any other material like the "Contact Project" Looks like the site hasn't been maintained since 1996, or there abouts... Thanks in Advance, Michael Cortez Development Services Fullerton College No, sorry. The site hasn't been updated, and I don't think anyone was planing on doing anything like "Contact Project" again. Kelly From VM Wed Apr 21 15:50:14 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1412" "Wednesday" "21" "April" "1999" "18:45:42" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "33" "starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1412 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07063 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07047 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (302) by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 5PSJa05766; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7ce4d448.244faf16@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: jdavis@crcom.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:45:42 EDT > Here is a little more about the pion rocket. There is > also a 20,000 pound tank containing the 100,000 pounds > of ordinary hydrogen to mix with antimatter in the form > of antihydrogen, This pion rockets useful payload is > 20,000 pounds.To get more useful payload the pion > rocket must be scaled up. A 600,000 pound pion rocket > could carry 40,000 pounds of useful payload and > accelerate it to 72 percent of light speed in a year. > A 6000,000 pound pion rocket could carry 400,000 > pounds of useful payload.. The antihydrogen is stored > in the magnetic bottles in the form of antihydrogen > ice. The antihydrogen is zapped by a low power uv > laser to vaporize it a little bit at a time, and ionize it. > Electrostatic repulsion of the negatively charged > anti protons causes === > ==The vehicle frame, magnetic nozzle, engine, magnetic > vacume lines, matter-antimattermixing chamber, and > magnetic storage bottles are made of steel. The rest > of the vehicle is made mostly of aluminium metal. > There is also a steel radiation shield around the > antimatter-matter annhilation engine which is part of > the 20,000 pound pion engine weight. > Timothy J. Mayes You have a lot of numbers, but I don't know where you got them from. How does a 20,000 pound engine with shielding give 60,000 pounds of sustained thrust? Where do you get those weight numbers from? Kelly From VM Wed Apr 21 15:59:52 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2637" "Wednesday" "21" "April" "1999" "18:45:35" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "68" "starship-design: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2637 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08265 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08238 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (302) by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id zZDKa13359 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7a03dd62.244faf0f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_7a03dd62.244faf0f_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:45:35 EDT --part1_7a03dd62.244faf0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_7a03dd62.244faf0f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (rly-zc04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.4]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:29:15 -0400 Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by rly-zc04.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA02990 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xroadstx.com (max03-02.crcom.net [208.234.65.107]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03826 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:29:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <371C7FED.6C3B9538@xroadstx.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:23:58 -0500 From: Janice Davis Reply-To: jdavis@crcom.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KellySt@aol.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design References: <4dae12a8.244a1d8d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a little more about the pion rocket. There is also a 20,000 pound tank containing the 100,000 pounds of ordinary hydrogen to mix with antimatter in the form of antihydrogen, This pion rockets useful payload is 20,000 pounds.To get more useful payload the pion rocket must be scaled up. A 600,000 pound pion rocket could carry 40,000 pounds of useful payload and accelerate it to 72 percent of light speed in a year. A 6000,000 pound pion rocket could carry 400,000 pounds of useful payload.. The antihydrogen is stored in the magnetic bottles in the form of antihydrogen ice. The antihydrogen is zapped by a low power uv laser to vaporize it a little bit at a time, and ionize it. Electrostatic repulsion of the negatively charged anti protons causes them to enter a superconducting magnetic vacume line which takes them to the antimatter-matter mixing chamber in the pion engine. Liquid helium cooling jackets are used to supercool the magnetic engine, the magnetic mixing chamber, the magnetic antimatter storage bottles, and the magnetic vacume lines.. The vehicle frame, magnetic nozzle, engine, magnetic vacume lines, matter-antimattermixing chamber, and magnetic storage bottles are made of steel. The rest of the vehicle is made mostly of aluminium metal. There is also a steel radiation shield around the antimatter-matter annhilation engine which is part of the 20,000 pound pion engine weight. Timothy J. Mayes --part1_7a03dd62.244faf0f_boundary-- From VM Wed Apr 21 16:13:04 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["299" "Wednesday" "21" "April" "1999" "16:10:20" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "6" "starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 299 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19234 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19128 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08212 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08732; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:10:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14110.23260.383164.517338@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <7ce4d448.244faf16@aol.com> References: <7ce4d448.244faf16@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:10:20 -0700 (PDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > You have a lot of numbers, but I don't know where you got them from. How > does a 20,000 pound engine with shielding give 60,000 pounds of sustained > thrust? Where do you get those weight numbers from? Uh, Kelly, an engine can produce more thrust than its weight. From VM Thu Apr 22 10:13:01 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["427" "Thursday" "22" "April" "1999" "08:27:40" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "12" "Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 427 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA27776 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27766 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (302) by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id sMUMa05766; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:27:40 EDT >KellySt@aol.com writes: >> You have a lot of numbers, but I don't know where you >> got them from. How does a 20,000 pound engine with >> shielding give 600,000 pounds of sustained >> thrust? Where do you get those weight numbers from? > Uh, Kelly, an engine can produce more thrust than its weight. Yeah, but a 30 - 1 thrust to weight ratio is pretty good, and this is a anti-mater to pion drive. Optimistic. Kelly From VM Thu Apr 22 10:57:45 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["771" "Thursday" "22" "April" "1999" "10:53:07" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 771 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09827 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09810 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21404 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12143; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:53:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14111.25091.452847.215355@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:53:07 -0700 (PDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > >KellySt@aol.com writes: > >> You have a lot of numbers, but I don't know where you > >> got them from. How does a 20,000 pound engine with > >> shielding give 600,000 pounds of sustained > >> thrust? Where do you get those weight numbers from? > > > Uh, Kelly, an engine can produce more thrust than its weight. > > Yeah, but a 30 - 1 thrust to weight ratio is pretty good, and this is a > anti-mater to pion drive. Optimistic. > > Kelly Rocket engines that have thrust well in excess of their weight already exist. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to get rockets off the ground. I don't see why you consider a 30::1 thrust::weight ratio for an antimatter rocket optimistic considering the fuel involved. Think about it. From VM Thu Apr 22 11:53:26 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["676" "Thursday" "22" "April" "1999" "12:43:57" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 676 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA05904 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05882 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin58.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.58]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27429 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:44:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371F7BFD.59AB859D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:43:57 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > >KellySt@aol.com writes: > >> You have a lot of numbers, but I don't know where you > >> got them from. How does a 20,000 pound engine with > >> shielding give 600,000 pounds of sustained > >> thrust? Where do you get those weight numbers from? > > > Uh, Kelly, an engine can produce more thrust than its weight. > I would like to see the detailed math for the thrust, so I can do the calculations myself. Right now anti-matter production not very practical, anybody got ideas for that.( anybody for huge solar anti-matter production plants in orbit around the sun. ?) I assume the thrust is for over a year so that is very good engine. From VM Thu Apr 22 17:16:48 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1173" "Thursday" "22" "April" "1999" "20:12:24" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "29" "Re: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1173 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18657 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18642 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (301) by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id zJDRa09418 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <466de90f.245114e8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:12:24 EDT >> > Uh, Kelly, an engine can produce more thrust than its weight. > > > > Yeah, but a 30 - 1 thrust to weight ratio is pretty good, and this is a > > anti-mater to pion drive. Optimistic. > > > > Kelly > Rocket engines that have thrust well in excess of their > weight already exist. Otherwise we wouldn't be able > to get rockets off the ground. I know that Steve. I was in NASA for about 14 years. 30-1 even pushing 100 to 1 is possible for some chemical fueled rocket engines. > I don't see why you consider a 30::1 thrust::weight > ratio for an antimatter rocket optimistic considering > the fuel involved. Think about it. I exactly because of the fuel involved that I doubt it. Curently equipment to handel a few dozen atoms weighs most of a ton. For an engine like this your talking about handeling significant mass with magnetic fields, with cooling and sheilding loads, and triky reaction to induce. This is the kind of stuff they build things the size of CERN to play with. Most fusion designs can't even lift their own weight. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it sure isn't an assumption that should go unchallenged. Kelly From VM Fri Apr 23 16:07:21 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1132" "Friday" "23" "April" "1999" "19:01:32" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "25" "starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1132 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07456 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07444 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (306) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 5ASWa14186; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5b6b629e.245255cc@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: jdavis@crcom.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: starship design Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:01:32 EDT > Why do you doubt the 20,000 pound figure for the pion > engine? The pion engine could simply be a 1 meter long, > 1 meter diameter 2 inch thick steel cyclinder with about > 10,000 turns of copper wire carrying ten amps of > electric current wrapped around it, with a 2 inch thick > 2 meter long by 2 meter wide square of steel behind it > as the radiation shield. Matter antimatter annhilation > produces only one kind of radiation which is gamma rays. > A light weight material such as beyrellium metal can > also be used to make the gamma radiation shield. >Timothy J Mayes Prove it. How much waste heat will the engine need to stand? All the radiation heading toward the shield will be come heat. The pipe and wire will heat up too. Are you sure that will be all it takes to turn your relatavistic pion stream toward the rear of the ship? The magnetic feild would have to at least be strong enough to lift the 600,000 lb ship, since its the force transmiting the thrust to the ship. Past that though it has to have more power to turn the random pion stream. Thats just off the top of my head. Kelly From VM Mon Apr 26 10:01:30 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1431" "Saturday" "24" "April" "1999" "13:43:25" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "33" "starship-design: antimatter--designs" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1431 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07312 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07297 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin40.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.40]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03768 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:43:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37222CED.231728A2@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5b6b629e.245255cc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: antimatter--designs Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:43:25 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > Why do you doubt the 20,000 pound figure for the pion > > engine? The pion engine could simply be a 1 meter long, > > 1 meter diameter 2 inch thick steel cyclinder with about > > 10,000 turns of copper wire carrying ten amps of > > electric current wrapped around it, with a 2 inch thick > > 2 meter long by 2 meter wide square of steel behind it > > as the radiation shield. Matter antimatter annhilation > > produces only one kind of radiation which is gamma rays. > > A light weight material such as beyrellium metal can > > also be used to make the gamma radiation shield. > >Timothy J Mayes > > Prove it. How much waste heat will the engine need to stand? All the > radiation heading toward the shield will be come heat. The pipe and wire > will heat up too. > > Are you sure that will be all it takes to turn your relatavistic pion stream > toward the rear of the ship? The magnetic feild would have to at least be > strong enough to lift the 600,000 lb ship, since its the force transmiting > the thrust to the ship. Past that though it has to have more power to turn > the random pion stream. > > Thats just off the top of my head. > > Kelly Still confused here. What is "pion"? Are we talking a anti-matter launch vehicle here or a general purpose space tug type engine. Will the engine design scale ok for larger thrust.What trust and size is optimon? Post Blue prints!!!! From VM Mon Apr 26 10:01:30 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1316" "Saturday" "24" "April" "1999" "18:42:38" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "39" "starship-design: Re: Re: starship design" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1316 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09555 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09550 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (14432) by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 5LITa19332; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5c4ae63e.2453a2de@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: jdavis@crcom.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: starship design Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:42:38 EDT In a message dated 4/23/99 6:37:20 PM, jdavis@crcom.net writes: >The pion decay process works as follows . Pions decay first into muons, >then into >electrons and positrons, and then into gamma rays. by the time the gamma >rays appear the pions, and so on will no longer be inside the engine at >all. = Good point, the shielding would need to be more extensive since the gamasource wouldn't be in a small area of the ship. >==Remember the magnetic nozzle is superconducting. The nozzle will be >cooled by a cooling jacket of liquid helium. Super conductors are vulnerable to radiation or high current loads. >All the magnetic field does inside the nozzle is deflect, and focous >the pions into an exchaust beam. That is the thrust transmition mechanism to the ship. >The transmission of thrust is the result of Newtons third law which >states that for every action there is an equal, and opposite reaction. That doesgethr it the ship,it gets it into pion stream. I.E. the kinetic energy of particals going one way is balenced by those going the other. It does NOT get thrust into the ship. >The magnetic field does not propell the >ship the expulsion of the pions does this by the third law. The >strength of the pion engine nozzle magnetic field is 10 teslas which is >100,000 gauss > Kelly From VM Mon Apr 26 10:01:30 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1646" "Saturday" "24" "April" "1999" "18:47:00" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "47" "Re: starship-design: antimatter--designs" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1646 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10868 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10849 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (14432) by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id zPIGa05764; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <73671a59.2453a3e4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, jdavis@crcom.net Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter--designs Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:47:00 EDT In a message dated 4/24/99 2:44:40 PM, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: >KellySt@aol.com wrote: >> >> > Why do you doubt the 20,000 pound figure for the pion >> > engine? The pion engine could simply be a 1 meter long, >> > 1 meter diameter 2 inch thick steel cyclinder with about >> > 10,000 turns of copper wire carrying ten amps of >> > electric current wrapped around it, with a 2 inch thick >> > 2 meter long by 2 meter wide square of steel behind it >> > as the radiation shield. Matter antimatter annhilation >> > produces only one kind of radiation which is gamma rays. >> > A light weight material such as beyrellium metal can >> > also be used to make the gamma radiation shield. >> >Timothy J Mayes >> >> Prove it. How much waste heat will the engine need to stand? All the >> radiation heading toward the shield will be come heat. The pipe and >wire >> will heat up too. >> >> Are you sure that will be all it takes to turn your relatavistic pion >stream >> toward the rear of the ship? The magnetic feild would have to at least >be >> strong enough to lift the 600,000 lb ship, since its the force transmiting >> the thrust to the ship. Past that though it has to have more power to >turn >> the random pion stream. >> >> Thats just off the top of my head. >> >> Kelly > >Still confused here. What is "pion"? A sub atomic partical produced during anti mater conversion to energy. >Are we talking a anti-matter launch vehicle here or a general purpose >space tug type engine. = He was talking stardrive. >==Will the engine design scale ok for larger >thrust.What trust and size is optimon? >Post Blue prints!!!! From VM Fri Apr 30 10:47:31 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2182" "Thursday" "29" "April" "1999" "22:13:13" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "61" "starship-design: Re: starships" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2182 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12649 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12642 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (299) by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 8XYDa07288; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <65706060.245a6bb9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: cffc@nvinet.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: starships Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:13:13 EDT Good evening, I just got around to reading through the design study for the explorer class starships. The references are mostly 3 years old but quite adequate for the study. I did notice that you have Li6 yielding an exhaust Velocity of about 8.33% Cee, When I looked into this Li7 + H1 will yield about 4.81% to 6.818% Cee. You can gather the H in situ and just load the Li&, which is common. So to go near 30%C you only need about 500:1 FMR ( down to 81.45 :1 at the highest Vex) You might be able to get by with less, but not if you use the same propellant on board for the whole trip. A magsail and solar induced reaction can act to slow the craft down when entering the new system. The life support can also be reduced several ways. But you want to keep the fresh food and the plants to make the air smell fresh. It just may not re4quire 200 tonnes per person. The landers and exploration satellites are best stored as parts and designs and not the finished craft so that they can be reconfigured as needed. Some have to be ready all the time for outside repairs and other emergencies. Jim F C'= C F' Cerulean Freight Forwarding Company http://www.nvinet.com/~cffc/page2.htm Hi Jim, I'm a bit disturbed to hear I might have gotten the exaust velocity wrong. I'm out of town on a contract, so I can't review my notes. The later Fuel/Sail configuration deals with some of your concerns. With the fuel spread out into a microwave sail. The ship can be accelerated to cruse speed without taping its fuel. Solar sails are pretty useless since you don't spend enough time near a star to put it to use. Mag-sail was debated, but no one knew enough to know how to put it to use, or if it could be. I'm not sure how storing the the support craft as parts helps any? Since you need several craft assembled simaltaniously, your might as well store them as assembled craft, not parts. Most of the parts wouldn't be inter-changable anyway. Its not like a areo-shuttle hull could be adapted to serve as a satelight hull? Anyway, glad you liked the site and were interested enough to write. Kelly From VM Mon May 3 10:10:42 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1499" "Sunday" "2" "May" "1999" "09:22:32" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "25" "starship-design: Alien life" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1499 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23114 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 2 May 1999 07:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23103 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 07:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-31.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.31]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09765 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 10:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <372C7BC8.5921E0B8@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Alien life Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 09:22:32 -0700 SSD: On the subject of contamination by alien life, we can only speculate. But we can attempt to make 'educated guesses' and define safety precautions. I have been thinking long about this subject, and I think it will be a much more dangerous problem than we think. Let us first consider what life is: must it be carbon based? Could it be silicon, boron, or tungsten based? Well, that depends on what you call life. Only carbon seems able to make well workable amino acids, but what of the possibility of life that does not use amino acids, or enzymes? Something truly alien to anything we have previously encountered. On an earthlike planet, or something similar, life will probably be similar to earth life, at least in the use of DNA or carbon based amino acids. This life would not pose a serious threat since it was not adapted to human proteins. However, as has been pointed out, precautions must be taken in the off chance they could infect humans. But now consider life existing in an extremely hostile environment. There are those who believe life would never exist in an inhospitable environment, but that fact it made moot by studying life here on earth. Any lifeforms that exist on a hostile world would likely have to survive on nearly anything. As such, they could prove to be incredibly dangerous to humans. Something like the 'andromeda strain,' but possibly much worse. Decon procedures should be carried out when landing on any world, not just earthlike ones. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Mon May 3 10:10:42 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["477" "Sunday" "2" "May" "1999" "23:19:32" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl" nil "12" "Re: starship-design: Alien life" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 477 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29173 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 3 May 1999 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29162 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from - (dc2-modem3011.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.139.195]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA14972 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:02:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990502231932.0068c58c@pop.xs4all.nl> X-Sender: shealiak@pop.xs4all.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) In-Reply-To: <372C7BC8.5921E0B8@sunherald.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Timothy van der Linden From: Timothy van der Linden Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Alien life Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:19:32 +0100 Kyle wrote: >Any lifeforms that exist on a hostile world would likely >have to [be able to] survive on nearly anything. >As such, they could prove to be incredibly dangerous to humans. Unless they have competition. Take a cactus, they can live on almost barren ground, with extreme temperature and moist differences. Yet, in less barren places other plants seem to be able to take advantage of the better conditions unlike the cactus which will stand little chance. Timothy From VM Mon May 3 10:10:42 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1937" "Wednesday" "3" "May" "2000" "09:22:40" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "38" "Re: starship-design: Alien life" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1937 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02829 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 3 May 1999 08:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02778 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 08:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin33.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.33]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA03612 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:14:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <39105250.9CCAC8A0@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <372C7BC8.5921E0B8@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Alien life Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 09:22:40 -0700 "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > > SSD: > > On the subject of contamination by alien life, we can only speculate. > But we can attempt to make 'educated guesses' and define safety > precautions. I have been thinking long about this subject, and I think > it will be a much more dangerous problem than we think. Let us first > consider what life is: must it be carbon based? Could it be silicon, > boron, or tungsten based? Well, that depends on what you call life. Only > carbon seems able to make well workable amino acids, but what of the > possibility of life that does not use amino acids, or enzymes? Something > truly alien to anything we have previously encountered. On an earthlike > planet, or something similar, life will probably be similar to earth > life, at least in the use of DNA or carbon based amino acids. This life > would not pose a serious threat since it was not adapted to human > proteins. However, as has been pointed out, precautions must be taken in > the off chance they could infect humans. But now consider life existing > in an extremely hostile environment. There are those who believe life > would never exist in an inhospitable environment, but that fact it made > moot by studying life here on earth. Any lifeforms that exist on a > hostile world would likely have to survive on nearly anything. As such, > they could prove to be incredibly dangerous to humans. Something like > the 'andromeda strain,' but possibly much worse. Decon procedures should > be carried out when landing on any world, not just earthlike ones. > > Kyle R. Mcallister I think the only real danger is the upright creatures with big brains and low wisdom. Any other life that could of floated in like the 'andromeda strain,' would of happened allready. The real danger things that are slightly harmfull that could be a big pain.... take rabbits in australia for example... remember the tribbles and captain kirk.... Ben. From VM Fri May 7 10:30:44 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3662" "Friday" "7" "May" "1999" "02:03:31" "-0500" "Johnny Thunderbird" "jthunderbird@nternet.com" nil "86" "Re: starship-design: Alien life" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3662 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA16350 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 7 May 1999 00:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.nternet.com ([207.204.32.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA16336 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 00:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8882 invoked from network); 7 May 1999 07:01:44 -0000 Received: from pm3-05.nternet.com (HELO nternet.com) (207.204.32.205) by eagle.nternet.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 07:01:44 -0000 Message-ID: <37329042.62D6EE53@nternet.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <372C7BC8.5921E0B8@sunherald.infi.net> <39105250.9CCAC8A0@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Johnny Thunderbird From: Johnny Thunderbird Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk CC: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Alien life Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 02:03:31 -0500 bfranchuk wrote: > "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > > > > SSD: > > > > On the subject of contamination by alien life, we can only speculate. > > But we can attempt to make 'educated guesses' and define safety > > precautions. I have been thinking long about this subject, and I think > > it will be a much more dangerous problem than we think. Strangeness may not be most dangerous. The most dangerous might be alien life closest to ours. Acute awareness of this principle comes from my diagnosis 30 days ago with mantle cell lymphoma. > Let us first > > consider what life is: must it be carbon based? Could it be silicon, > > boron, or tungsten based? Well, that depends on what you call life. Only > > carbon seems able to make well workable amino acids, but what of the > > possibility of life that does not use amino acids, or enzymes? Something > > truly alien to anything we have previously encountered. On an earthlike > > planet, or something similar, life will probably be similar to earth > > life, at least in the use of DNA DNA now is definitely wilder guess. There might be a zillion molecular structures which can record and replicate data. Proteins can. > or carbon based amino acids. I find carbon life may be more probable than other elemental bases for life, due to its easy formation of complex structure on the molecular level. Structure at this level enables the creation of voids in the material which may enclose negative entropy zones, as life takes advantage of energy flux to pump out entropy. Most likely carbon. > This life > > would not pose a serious threat since it was not adapted to human > > proteins. However, as has been pointed out, precautions must be taken in > > the off chance they could infect humans. But now consider life existing > > in an extremely hostile environment. The liquid water temperature / pressure range again has a vast probability advantage. Like carbon, water is ubiquitous in space. This temperature zone is very mild and kind to microstructures, particularly, need I add, of carbon. That molecular water and relatively free carbon can be found together on the arbitrary planet is a good probability. That this water happens to be in the liquid temperature zone would boost the chances for life, and after life is established it may thermoregulate the planet surface to maintain this temperature zone. > There are those who believe life > > would never exist in an inhospitable environment, but that fact it made > > moot by studying life here on earth. Any lifeforms that exist on a > > hostile world would likely have to survive on nearly anything. As such, > > they could prove to be incredibly dangerous to humans. Prions are protein entities. They are incredibly dangerous to humans. Mad cow disease. Kwashiorkor. They contain no nucleic acids. > Something like > > the 'andromeda strain,' but possibly much worse. Decon procedures should > > be carried out when landing on any world, not just earthlike ones. > > > > Kyle R. Mcallister > > I think the only real danger is the upright creatures with big > brains > and low wisdom. Any other life that could of floated in like the > 'andromeda strain,' > would of happened allready. The real danger things that are slightly > harmfull > that could be a big pain.... take rabbits in australia for example... > remember > the tribbles and captain kirk.... > Ben. Prions are not life, yet they are self-replicating disease agents. This example raises the probability that arbitrary carbon structures may be a biohazard. It's a jungle out there. Regards, Johnny Thunderbird MCL page: http://www.geocities.com/~jthunderbird/mantle From VM Wed May 12 10:17:25 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["39984" "Tuesday" "11" "May" "1999" "20:59:58" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "860" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 May 8" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 39984 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA22595 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 11 May 1999 19:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22576 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 19:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p226.gnt.com [204.49.89.226]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA30716 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:00:42 -0500 Message-ID: <002d01be9c1b$23946390$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 May 8 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:59:58 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: owner-spaceviews@wayback.com [mailto:owner-spaceviews@wayback.com] On Behalf Of jeff@spaceviews.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 1:57 PM Subject: SpaceViews -- 1999 May 8 [ SpaceViews (tm) newsletter ] [ see end of message for our NEW address to subscribe / unsubscribe ] S P A C E V I E W S Issue 1999.05.08 1999 May 8 http://www.spaceviews.com/1999/0508/ *** News *** Delta 3 Lifts Off But Puts Satellite Into Wrong Orbit Russia May Use ISS Soyuz for Mir Lockheed Martin Appoints Panel to Study Launch Failures German Satellite Encounters Problems Upgraded Software Enables Successful Galileo Flyby Russian Service Module Renamed Students to Participate in 2001 Mars Mission SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News *** Articles *** The State and Fate of Small RLVs: A Report on the Space Access '99 Conference *** Letters *** The Case for Privatization *** News *** Delta 3 Lifts Off But Puts Satellite Into Wrong Orbit After a month's worth of delays, a Boeing Delta 3 lifted off Tuesday evening, May 4, but a failure of the booster's second stage stranded its payload in a useless low orbit. The Delta 3 launched the Orion 3 communications satellite at 9:00 pm EDT (0100 UT) from Cape Canaveral, Florida, at the beginning of its hour-long launch window. The countdown and the launch were problem free. However, Boeing launch controllers later reported that the second of two burns scheduled for the Delta 3's second stage may have been too short. Boeing officials later reported at a late night news conference that the second burn may not have taken place at all. The Orion 3 satellite is in a orbit of just 137 by 1,210 km (85 by 750 mi.), the orbit the second stage and satellite were in after the end of the stage's first burn. Satellite controllers are trying to use the spacecraft's own engine to raise its orbit so that it can use its solar panels more effectively, otherwise the satellite's batteries will die within a day. It is unlikely the spacecraft can be placed in its planned geosynchronous orbit. The launch, previously planned for May 2, was pushed back to the 4th after the failure of the Centaur upper stage on a Titan 4B. The Delta 3 second stage uses the same engine as the Centaur, however, Boeing engineers decided the Delta 3 upper stage was sufficiently different from the Centaur not to be a problem. A board of investigation has been convened to study the incident, and started their investigation Wednesday, May 5. The failure is the second in two launch attempts for the Delta 3. The first, in August 1998, ended in failure just over a minute after launch due to problems traced to the booster's guidance system, which was not programmed to handle the vibrations from the booster's strap-on boosters that are ignited after liftoff. These vibrations caused a "roll instability" which eventually led to the loss of the booster. There had been four previous launch attempts for this Delta 3, all of which were scrubbed by various problems with the booster and range. The most recent launch attempt, on April 22, was aborted when a software error prevented a command to start the booster's engines from being sent to the rocket at T-0 seconds. The Delta 3 is a heavy-lift version of Boeing's workhorse Delta 2. It is capable of lifting payloads as heavy as 3,800 kg (8,400 lbs.) into geostationary orbit, twice the capacity of the Delta 2. Boeing hopes the booster will gain a share of the growing market for large comsats and related payloads. The Orion 3 satellite was to be used by the Loral Skynet system for communications services for the Far East and the Pacific. Russia May Use ISS Soyuz for Mir Russia is reportedly planning to use a Soyuz spacecraft that was to launch the first crew for the International Space Station to send a new crew to the Mir space station this August, according to the Times of London. In an article published by the Times this week, the Russian Space Agency will use $40 million given to them by NASA last month to build the Soyuz spacecraft that will ferry a relief crew to Mir this August, rather than send the first crew to ISS. NASA gave Russia the money on the understanding, but not explicit agreement, that the funding would be used to complete a Soyuz spacecraft that would be used for ISS. The Times said the next Soyuz spacecraft would not be ready until late next year. Russian space expert James Oberg told the Times that Russia was willing do whatever necessary to keep Mir in orbit for at least the near term. "There is no way they will bring down Mir while the ISS is unmanned," he told the Times. "Russia wants to be one step ahead of America, and with Mir in space it is." If the Soyuz in unavailable for the first ISS crew launch, they could instead be transferred to the station on one of the shuttle missions scheduled for ISS assembly and logistics this year. However, in that case the crew would lack an escape vehicle, in the form of a Soyuz capsule, in the event of an emergency on the station. "We are working on several contingency plans, including using shuttles to go to ISS and modifying Navy satellites," NASA spokesman Dwayne Brown told the Times. "We are also talking to our international partners about how we can help Russia keep to its commitments." The "Navy satellite" is likely a reference to the Interim Control Module, a modified Navy spacecraft that would provide station propulsion if the ISS's Service Module was available on the station. Russia plans to launch the Service Module late this year. Energia, the company that built the Service Module, also operates the Mir space station and is seeking investors to keep the station in orbit. At the Service Module rollout April 26 company officials said they were willing to take out loans to keep the station in orbit until at least early 2000, even if no investors could be found. The most recent investor candidate, British businessman Peter Llewellyn, is thought unlikely to have the $100 million Energia claimed he would pay for a flight to Mir in August. Llewellyn, who claims that he was offered a free trip to Mir to promote a children's hospital, was implicated in a number of scams while in the U.S. Space News, in its May 10 issue, shed some light on the original investor that Energia claimed in December would support Mir for three years. According to a Russian Space Agency spokesman quoted in the article, the investor was from Australia, and backed out when the Russian government failed to provide guarantees quickly. Lockheed Martin Appoints Panel to Study Launch Failures Lockheed Martin has appointed an independent panel, headed by a former Martin Marietta president, to study the recent rash of failures by the company's launch vehicles, the company announced May 4. The decision to create the panel comes on the same day the Air Force officially declared the April 30 launch of a Milstar satellite a failure, as the communications satellite is stranded in a low orbit. The independent panel will be charged with making a comprehensive study of program management, engineering and manufacturing processes, and quality control procedures at Lockheed Martin's Astronautics, Missiles and Space, and Michoud Space Systems divisions. The panel's report will be due by September 1. Although the company claims a 97 percent "mission success" rate, "it's also clear that recent launch vehicle missions have not met their objectives," said Lockheed Martin president Pete Teets. "This is unacceptable in a company that takes the concept of performance and quality as seriously as Lockheed Martin does." The panel will be chaired by A. Thomas Young, a former president of Martin Marietta. Martin Marietta and Lockheed merged in the mid-1990s to create Lockheed Martin. The rest of the panel will include experts from both within and outside of the company. Lockheed Martin has been hit with a string of three launch failures in less than a month. Two Titan 4B launches, on April 9 and 30, failed when their upper stages failed to place their payloads into the proper orbits. An Athena 2 failed to put the Ikonos 1 commercial reconnaissance satellite into orbit April 27 when its payload fairing failed to separate, making the payload too heavy to put into orbit. On the same day Lockheed Martin announced the panel, the Air Force officially declared the April 30 Titan 4B launch to be a failure. A problem with the Titan 4B's Centaur upper stage stranded its payload, a Milstar 2 communications satellite, into a useless transfer orbit. Air Force officials say the satellite is functioning normally, with its batteries fully charged and its solar panels deployed. Air Force and industry experts are studying ways to make some use of the satellite. The Air Force has convened a separate accident investigation board to look into the causes of the launch failure. German Satellite Encounters Problems A German X-ray astronomy satellite launched last week has run into problems with its power supply that may prevent the satellite from carrying out its mission, SpaceViews has learned. At least one of eleven battery cells on the ABRIXAS satellite, launched April 28 from Russia, have failed, according to the German space agency DLR. This problem with the power supply has cut off communications with the spacecraft since May 1. According to reports first published on "The Cosmic Mirror" news service, initial contact with the satellite after launch was successful. However, in subsequent passes over ground stations a few hours after launch, a temperature problem was noted in the battery, followed by sharp changes in voltage. By April 30 contact with the satellite was lost and has not been regained. An international effort has been mounted to try and regain contact with the satellite, but project officials believe the best chance to regain contact with ABRIXAS will not come until late June. At that time the geometry of its inclined orbit will keep it in the Sun for several consecutive days, which officials hope will give the satellite enough power from its solar panels to resume contact with ground controllers. ABRIXAS, which stands for "A Broadband Imaging X-Ray All-sky Survey", was designed to provide the first complete survey of the sky at X-ray energies of 0.5 to 10 KeV, higher than past X-ray observatories like ROSAT. Scientists believe the satellite will be able to discover about 10,000 new X-ray sources, such as black holes, and be able to peed deeper into the heart of our own galaxy. The satellite was built by the German company OHB for the German space agency DLR. The satellite was launched April 28 on a Russian Kosmos-3M booster from Kapustin Yar. The launch, the first from the once-abandoned site in southern Russia in over a decade, also placed MegSat 0, a small Italian communications satellite, into low-Earth orbit. Upgraded Software Enables Successful Galileo Flyby Upgraded, "smart" software allowed NASA's Galileo spacecraft to make a successful flyby of Jupiter's moon Callisto May 5, avoiding problems that had foiled earlier flybys. The software, which allows the spacecraft to deal with an electrical glitch on the spacecraft without disrupting observations, was put to use twice in the days before the Callisto flyby, JPL reported May 5. Three prior flybys of another moon, Europa, were disrupted last year and early this year by glitches on Galileo. Those glitches triggered safe modes on Galileo which shut down scientific observations as the spacecraft waited for instructions from Earth. At least some of the problems were traced to electrical glitches. To prevent those problems from occurring again, spacecraft engineers developed new software that was uploaded to Galileo prior to this week's flyby. The software was designed to recognize the glitch and correct it without entering safe mode. The software was triggered twice on May 3, as Galileo approached Callisto. In both cases the software recognized the glitch and determined it was not dangerous, and kept the spacecraft out of safe mode. This permitted a successful flyby of Callisto two days later. A separate problem, though, did cause Galileo to switch from its primary control system for its scan platform to a less accurate backup system. The change means some of the data from one of Galileo's instruments may not be as sharp as planned, project officials said. The flyby was the first of several scheduled to alter Galileo's orbit. The "Perijove Reduction Campaign" will use four Callisto flybys over the next four months to reduce the closest approach Galileo makes to Jupiter, its perijove, from 643,000 km (400,000 mi.) to 393,000 km (244,000 mi.). This change in orbit will allow Galileo to make one or two close flybys of Io in October and November. Galileo has stayed farther away from Jupiter because of the intense radiation environment that close to the giant planet. The high-speed charged particles, accelerated by Jupiter's powerful magnetic field, can damage electronics on the spacecraft. Project engineers believe the spacecraft will be able to survive the passage through the radiation in the vicinity of Io, but are concerned that radiation exposure to the spacecraft's computers may reset them or otherwise put the spacecraft into a protective safe mode. Waiting until the end of the extended mission reduces the effect of any damage to the spacecraft from the flybys. Russian Service Module Renamed With little fanfare or official announcements, the Service Module, a key Russian contribution to the International Space Station, has been renamed "Zvezda". The announcement of the renaming was buried in the middle of the latest ISS status report issued by NASA Thursday, May 6. The status report only noted that the Service Module was "recently" named Zvezda, the Russian word for "star". The module was officially rolled out in an April 26 ceremony at an Energia facility near Moscow, but no announcement of its renaming was made then. No other announcements of the module name change were made; the rest of NASA's ISS Web site still uses the generic "Service Module" name. The renaming is the latest in series that follows a general philosophy to give station modules descriptive names while the overall station retains the generic ISS moniker. Most recently, Japan renamed its major contribution, the Japanese Experiment Module, "Kibo", a Japanese word for "hope". The first two station modules, the Russian-built FGB module and the American Node 1 docking node, were renamed Zarya ("dawn") and Unity respectively. The U.S. laboratory module has been named Destiny, while three cargo modules being built by Italy have been named Leonardo, Donnatello, and Raffaello. According to the NASA status report, Zvezda is scheduled to leave it Moscow assembly facility by train May 20 for Baikonur, where it will be prepared for launch. Zvezda's departure date is the same day the next shuttle mission, the next ISS assembly and logisitics mission, is scheduled for launch. Students to Participate in 2001 Mars Mission The general public, and students in particular, will have unprecedented access to a 2001 Mars mission as part of a Planetary Society project announced Thursday, May 6. In the "Red Rover Goes to Mars" project, announced during Space Day festivities in Washington, D.C. by former astronaut and senator John Glenn and Bill Nye, selected students will become integral members of teams working on the Mars Surveyor 2001 mission, including roles operating the spacecraft's rover and robotic arm. Those students, selected from essay- and journal-writing contests, will work during the mission from a simulated "Mars base" while other students and the general public participate via the Internet, including analyzing real-time data returned by the mission and suggesting areas to explore and experiments to conduct. "We stand on the threshold of an exciting millennium of exploration, one where the global public will become participants in the exploration of other worlds," said Planetary Society executive director Louis Friedman. "Internet technology, which has opened up communications here on Earth, will now provide worldwide access to the adventure of planetary exploration." The mission will involve students with the control of the Marie Curie rover, a nearly-identical twin to the Sojourner rover that flew on the Mars Pathfinder mission, as well as a robot arm that will be used to collect samples. Student participants will be limited to those born between January 31, 1984 and January 31, 1991. Those age ranges were designed so that the students would be no more than 18 years old by the time the spacecraft lands on Mars in April 2002. The project is an outgrowth of the society's "Red Rover, Red Rover" program which allows students to teleoperate model rovers over simulated Martian terrain at various sites on Earth. Both that program and the current project have been co-sponsored by the Lego company. The project is the second student involvement in the 2001 lander. In March the Planetary Society announced a contest to include a tiny student-designed "nanoexperiment" on the lander, as part of an existing experiment package to be flown on the mission. More information about the "Red Rover Goes to Mars" project can be found on the Web at http://rrgtm.planetary.org/. SpaceViews Event Horizon May 6-9 Space Studies Institute Conference on Space Manufacturing, Princeton, New Jersey May 15 Delta 2 launch of Navstar 2R-3 GPS satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida, at 6:28 pm EDT (2228 UT) May 18 Pegasus XL launch of the TERRIERS and MUBLCOM satellites, staged from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California, at 1:05 am EDT (0505 UT). May 20 Launch of the space shuttle Discovery on mission STS-96 from Kennedy Space Center, Florida, at 9:32 am EDT (1332 UT). May 22 Proton launch of the Nimiq-1 comsat from Baikonur, Kazakhastan. May 23 Atlas 2A launch of the GOES-L weather satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida (under review) May 27-31 International Space Development Conference, Houston, Texas May TBD Titan 4B launch of the Lacrosse F4 satellite from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California (under review) Other News Liberty Bell 7 Located: An expedition has located the Liberty Bell 7 capsule, in which Gus Grissom flew on America's second manned spaceflight, at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. The team located the capsule May 1 five km (three miles) below the surface of the ocean. Plans to raise it were delayed, however, when a cable connecting the command ship to the Magellan robotic submersible snapped in rough weather just hours after the capsule was located. The team plans to return in late June to recover the submersible and raise the capsule. The capsule sank shortly after splashdown July 21, 1961, nearly drowning Grissom, when the capsule's hatch blew. New Asteroid Belts: Oxford University astronomers have found theoretical evidence for two new, sparsely-populated asteroid belts in the inner solar system. Using computer simulations, N. Wyn Evans and Serge Tabachnik found that asteroids in two circular belts, one within the orbit of Mercury and the other just beyond the orbit of the Earth, could exist there for the history of the solar system. No known asteroids have been linked to the inner belt, but at least three recently discovered asteroids may have orbits consistent with the outer belt. Don't You Make My Black Holes Pink: Australian astronomers are puzzling over the discovery of several black holes which, at visible wavelengths, look pink. The holes themselves are likely not pink, noted Paul Francis of the Australian National University; rather, dust and gas around the black hole is glowing pink. "We really don't have the foggiest idea" why they are pink, he said. ISS Advertising: The Space Frontier Foundation announced this week its opposition to recent NASA policy that would prohibit advertising on any vehicles docking with or operating near the International Space Station. "Contrary to pronouncements by NASA Administrator Dan Goldin, this shows that ISS is not open for business," said SFF president Rick Tumlinson. "NASA says they want the private sector to be prime users of the station, then they announce plans to gut one of the cornerstones of commerce -- advertising." Tumlinson said this shows that NASA should turn over the operation of ISS, once complete, to a port authority-like organization that would work with both public and private organizations. Moon Base Sites: Scientists have identified three areas in the Moon's south polar regions that would be ideal for lunar bases. In a paper published in the May 1 issue of Geophysical Research Letters, the group of American and Dutch scientists picked three locations that, because of their altitude, would be in sunlight for 65 to 80 percent of the time, making solar power a viable energy source for any base there. Nearby sites in constant darkness would be sources of water ice for the sites. Briefly: Russia will not insure the launch of the Zvezda service module for the International Space Station, Russian media sources reported last week. Neither the Russian Space Agency nor the Energia corporation have the minimum $125,000 needed to purchase insurance for the launch... Lockheed Martin will partner with TRW and Telecom Italia to build the Astrolink satellite network, the company said this week. The service will provide high-speed Internet and multimedia services initially to North America and Europe, and later worldwide. The first four satellites of the system will be launched starting in 2002... John Glenn on a stamp? The U.S. Postal Service is accepting votes for the stamps it will include in its 90s collection, the last in a series of stamps on a decade-by-decade tour of the 20th century. Glenn's return to space and "interplanetary exploration" are two of 25 candidates for 15 stamps to honor the decade. Previous decades' stamp collections have included the space shuttle for the 1980s, Pioneer 10 for the 1970s, and the lunar landing for the 1960s. Voting will continue through the end of the month at local post offices and online at http://stampvote.msn.com. *** Articles *** The State and Fate of Small RLVs: A Report on the Space Access '99 Conference by Jeff Foust The case for reusable launch vehicles (RLVs) has seemed straightforward. RLVs can launch their payload, return to Earth, and be ready to launch another in a week or less. Reusability and rapid turnaround times reduce costs, making it far less expensive to place satellites into orbit. The picture clouds a bit, though, when examined in more detail. The technical challenges -- and costs -- of developing RLVs has limited most planned designs to relatively small payloads, such as low-Earth orbit (LEO) comsats like Iridium and Teledesic. While the market for these appears large, it is also uncertain, and that uncertainty is making it difficult for RLV companies to attract investors. Meanwhile, the larger aerospace companies are focusing on the existing, growing market for heavy geosynchronous orbit payloads, with expendables now and RLVs like VentureStar in the future. These issues were a primary focus of Space Access '99, an annual conference held last month in Phoenix focuses on new developments that promise to reduce the cost of access to space. By the end of the conference it was clear that there was no shortage of technical solutions to make space access less expensive, but a dire shortage of money to make it happen. The Uncertain Market Market planning by RLVs developers has, in general, focused on the growing market for LEO comsats. LEO comsat constellations could account for several hundred payloads in the next decade, according to an analysis by the consulting company The Teal Group earlier this year, as projects like Teledesic and SkyBridge get off the drawing board and into orbit. Yet, there is considerable uncertainty in the market. Iridium, which entered commercial service late last year, has run into serious financial problems as it has been unable to attract anywhere near as many customers as it planned. The recent departure of its CEO and chief financial officer has led to concerns that the company may not be able to make it, as well as overall speculation about how large of a market there really is for these services. These concerns are likely the primary reason why potential RLV investors are staying on the sidelines for the time being. The constellations themselves are also changing, noted Eric Laursen of International Launch Services, a Lockheed Martin/Russian joint venture that markets Atlas and Proton boosters. The number of satellites in Teledesic's project has shrunk from around 1,000 to 288, with each satellite growing heavier and flying in higher orbits -- two factors that work against small RLVs. This may prove critical, according to a market analysis presented at the conference by Dave Salt. Since Teledesic's satellites account for about three-quarters of the "baseline" payloads over the next several years, any successful RLV may be able to launch at least one Teledesic satellite to be successful. He also noted that RLVs need to enter service by 2001 to be able to capture a share of the projected surge in launcher demand that will last through 2003, before it declines as current projected projects are placed in orbit. In fact, the major aerospace companies are unconvinced there is a market for any kind of launch vehicle for small payloads. ILS's Laursen noted that the largest area of growth is in GEO comsats weighing over 5,500 kg (12,100 lbs.). This is because customers want as many transponders in orbit as they can get to lease or sell to broadcasters, and the most efficient way to do that is with large payloads. Laursen said that Lockheed Martin has struggled to sell flights on its Athena series of small launch vehicles. He also noted the potential new competition from Russia, where the Dnepr-1 rocket, a converted ICBM, can place up to 3,200 kg into LEO at low cost, with 150 of the rockets available. Similarly, Boeing has no vehicle in use or planned for small payloads. Boeing's Dana Andrews said the company is designing an RLV. Although details on their design had not yet been publicly released, it would likely be a two-stage design capable of lifting heavier payloads into orbit, rather than a direct competitor for smaller RLVs already in the works. RLV Company Updates With an uncertain launch market that's being dismissed by the larger aerospace companies, it would appear that the group of start-up RLV companies would face a steep uphill path to success. And while that may be true, the companies speaking at Space Access '99 showed every sign of optimism that their vehicles will be built and be a success. Gary Hudson, CEO of Rotary Rocket, downplayed concerns about the small LEO launch market. The company's business plan is not based on launching Teledesic satellites, he said. He believes that other markets besides satellite delivery are viable, including servicing of satellites, transfer of International Space Station crews, and eventually space tourism, although that market may be 10-15 years down the line. Hudson said the company plans to make the first flight of the Atmospheric Test Vehicle (ATV), which was rolled out in a March 1 ceremony, in the next few weeks. The company had just completed tests on the rotors that will be used for the flights, which will take place from Rotary's test facility at Mojave Airport, California. Rotary has raised about $30 million of the $150 million it needs to complete its orbital vehicle. Hudson downplayed reports that Virgin's Richard Branson was investing in Rotary, calling published reports "grossly wrong" but declining to elaborate. Mitchell Burnside Clapp of Pioneer Rocketplane outlined the status of his company's Pathfinder RLV. The Pathfinder uses off-the-shelf technologies where possible, he said, ranging from an RD-120 engine to brakes and tires used in the SR-71. "Pioneer Rocketplane is all about risk reduction," he said. Clapp believes the vehicle will be able to put up to 2,250 kg (5,000 lbs.) in LEO for $5-10 million a flight. He said the total cost of the Pathfinder will be less than $300 million, a sum the company is still raising. Once full funding is found, he said, it will take 35 months to go to first flight. Steve Wurst provided a look at the plans of Space Access LLC, an RLV start-up that has shied away from the publicity other RLV makers have sought. Their SA-1 project would be a fully-reusable two-stage system. A first stage would take off from a runway and fly most of the way into orbit using an ejector ramjet and engine. It would then deploy a second stage that would use a rocket engine to go the rest of the way into orbit, deliver the payload, and return. The SA-1 would be capable of launching LEO and some GEO satellites. Wurst said a redesigned second stage would later be able to transfer crews and supplies to the International Space Station. Wurst said the company is doing wind tunnel tests on the SA-1 design, and is looking to base their vehicle at the former Homestead Air Force Base south of Miami, Florida. The uncertain market and lack of investors is also not deterring companies, both new and established, from entering the marketplace. Orbital Science Corporation's Tim Lewis described his company's concept for a "Space Taxi", outlined in Orbital's space architecture study submitted to NASA. The Space Taxi would be a reusable vehicle launched atop an expendable vehicle like the Delta 4 Heavy, Atlas 5, or Ariane 5, capable of carrying 7 people into orbit. Universal Space Lines is also designing its own RLV, Space Clipper, according to Jess Sponable. The Space Clipper Experimental (SC-X) would be a vertical take-off and landing vehicle designed to test RLV technologies for future systems, he said. It would eventually become the second stage of a two-stage system, perhaps with USL's Intrepid expendable booster also in development. Sponable said the SC-X would make test flights from White Sands as early as 2003, funding permitting. Bob Conger of Microcosm outlined his company's Scorpius series of launch vehicles, starting with the SR-S suborbital rocket, which flew for the first time in January. The SR-S is the first in a series of vehicles that will eventually build up to the Sprite "mini-lift" vehicle and the Exodus medium-lift, capable of placing up to 6,800 kg (15,000 lbs.) into LEO for $10 million. While Scorpius' vehicles are expendable, Conger said the company is also looking at reusables. The potentially-lucrative sounding rocket market is the target of TGV-Rockets, according to Pat Bahn. TGV is developing the Modular Incremental Compact High Energy Low-cost Launch Experiment (MICHELLE), a reusable suborbital launch vehicle that is designed to provide more microgravity time for payloads under less stressful conditions than current sounding rockets. The vehicle would fly a crew of three and 1000 kg (2,200 lbs.) of payload to altitudes of 100 km (62 mi.) and speeds of Mach 3. Bahn noted that the market for sounding rockets currently is small -- about $100 million a year -- but other markets, from military flights to ISS experimental qualification flights, combined with the efficiencies gained by using an RLV with lower operating costs, would result in a much larger market. "Small markets add up," Bahn noted. The company needs about $50 million to build the vehicle, Bahn said. The Role of Government The role government can and should play to promote cheap access to space was also discussed at the conference. Three such roles were discussed: developing X-vehicles to test new concepts, regulations to make RLV flights possible, and legislation to financially support RLV development. Carl Meade of Lockheed Martin discussed the status of the X-33. He acknowledged that the project has had problems with the X-33's engine and hydrogen fuel tank that have pushed back the date of the first flight until mid-2000. However, such problems should be expected from X-vehicles, pointing to a chart which color-coded technologies used in the vehicle green, yellow, or red based on how ready for flight those technologies are. "All X-vehicles are yellow," Meade said. The Air Force and NASA will be cooperating on development of technologies for a "space maneuver vehicle" (SMV), a small reusable spacecraft that would be the upper stage of a launch vehicle capable of going into orbit. The Air Force has already been working on the X-40, a prototype of which made a successful drop test in August from Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico. More X-40 drop tests are planned this fall from B-52s, according to the Air Force's Terry Phillips. The Air Force will also get involved with the X-37, a similar vehicle that is one of the first of NASA's Future-X projects. NASA and Boeing are working on a cooperative cost-sharing agreement to develop the X-37. Robert Armstrong of NASA's Marshall Space Flight center said NASA will conduct atmospheric flight tests of the X-37 before a shuttle flight as early as November 2001 where an X-37 is carried into orbit and deployed so it can return to Earth. The Air Force would contribute funding to the X-37 to conduct tests that would make the X-37, already similar to the Air Force's proposed SMV, more like it. This would include funding to test solar arrays, attitude control systems, and sensors. Armstrong said, though, that potential applications are not driving the design of the X-37; rather, the vehicle is testing technologies that might be used in future reusable launch vehicles. However, tests of technology are not the only purposes X-vehicles need to serve, USL's Sponable said. Work also needs to be done to test the operational aspects of vehicles to prove, particularly to potential investors, that they can provide routine, low-cost access. A House authorization bill for NASA currently in the works includes $160 million over three years for such "X-ops" tests, although Sponable said that the first generation of RLVs will "live or die" before those tests can be carried out. Regulation of future RLV launches is also an issue, something that was addressed by Manuel Vega of the FAA. The FAA released days before the conference proposed regulations for licensing the reentry of RLVs. The public comment period on those regulations has begun, and Vega encourages the industry to provide feedback on the regulations before the comment period ends July 21. Government loan guarantees, as proposed in legislation by Senator John Breaux, also were discussed. The guarantees are almost universally opposed by launch vehicle companies outside of Lockheed Martin. One exception, though, is Space Access LLC. Steve Wurst noted that 20 percent of the loan guarantees would be set aside for small businesses, which could be beneficial for companies like his. Tim Pleasant, a lawyer and professor at the University of Phoenix, pointed out a major downside to companies that accept loan guarantees. If the company defaults, the government can step in and claim all the assets of the company, including the RLVs themselves, and then resell or operate them itself. The bill, he concluded, is "nobly intended but poorly carried out." It may be a moot point in the end, though, since the bill is unlikely to leave the Senate's commerce committee. Tim Kyger and Henry Vanderbilt noted that the chairman of the committee, John McCain, is running for President and is paying less time to committee affairs. Since no one else on the committee appears to care about the bill, it is unlikely to be considered. Despite the problems and uncertainty in the market, conference attendees are still very optimistic about the future, in part because of the tremendous potential for new markets if low-cost space access can be realized, including those not yet even conceivable. Trying to explain that future in space, noted Max Hunter, would be like "trying to explain Hollywood to Queen Isabella." -- Jeff Foust is editor of SpaceViews. *** Letters *** The Case for Privatization [Editor's Note: Letters can be sent to letters@spaceviews.com.] I beg to differ with Dian Hardison's viewpoint from the April 22 letters column (http://www.spaceviews.com/1999/04/letters3.html). Since its 1991 peak, the space shuttle budget has dropped 29%, in part because of the increasing responsibility that NASA has allowed its contractor team (AW&ST, 4/26/99, p. L5). Over that same period, the shuttle has also flown a higher sustained flight rate than at any time in its history. The recent drop in flight rate is due to critical payloads, ISS and Chandra, not being ready on time, not to any problems with the space shuttle. Further privatization will result in more savings by eliminating dual chains of management that create a "one man serving two masters" syndrome at the worker-bee level, and by rewarding results instead of effort on the part of the contractor. This is not just a good deal for the taxpayers: it is vital to allow NASA to refocus its energies on the exploration of the moon and Mars instead of routine LEO operations. The government has made it fairly clear that NASA's human spaceflight budget will not be increasing any time soon. Therefore, the funding for any lunar/Mars efforts must come from savings in the shuttle/ISS budget. Both programs will have to operate leaner than they have ever done before. Based on past performance, partial or total privatization of both programs is the most promising means to this end. Jorge Frank ======== This has been the May 8, 1999, issue of SpaceViews. SpaceViews is also available on the World Wide web from the SpaceViews home page: http://www.spaceviews.com/ or via anonymous FTP from ftp.seds.org: ftp://ftp.seds.org/pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews/text/19990508.txt To unsubscribe from SpaceViews, send mail to: majordomo@spaceviews.com In the body (not subject) of the message, type: unsubscribe spaceviews For editorial questions and article submissions for SpaceViews, including letters to the editor, contact the editor, Jeff Foust, at jeff@spaceviews.com For questions about the SpaceViews mailing list, please contact spaceviews-approval@spaceviews.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- - - To NOT receive future newsletters, send this message to our NEW address: - To: majordomo@SpaceViews.com - Subject: anything - unsubscribe SpaceViews - - E-Mail List services provided by Northern Winds: www.nw.net - - SpaceViews (tm) is published for the National Space Society (NSS), - copyright (C) Boston Chapter of National Space Society - www.spaceviews.com www.nss.org (jeff@spaceviews.com) From VM Fri May 14 11:22:48 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["259" "Friday" "14" "May" "1999" "12:08:02" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "7" "starship-design: planetary maps." "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 259 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA05968 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05932 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin58.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.58]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20653 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:16:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <373C7492.73632835@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: planetary maps. Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:08:02 -0700 While not nuts and bolts of interplantary craft, here is a few maps that can be used as backgrounds for when you raytrace your favorite space design. Also the other worlds look interesting. http://www.lancs.ac.uk/postgrad/thomasc1/render/maps.htm#index Ben. From VM Sat May 15 14:17:30 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["315" "Saturday" "15" "May" "1999" "16:52:10" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "12" "starship-design: Re: Cool Page" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 315 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22269 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22258 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (305) by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id uVOCa26082; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: guzjan@stud.uni-frankfurt.de, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Cool Page Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:52:10 EDT >Cool Page! > But no Update in 3 Years (!). What happenend, is the > LIT dead? > Greetings > Aleks Guzijan Hi, Glad you like it. Its not dead, but no real big ideas in the last couple years, and no ones done any work on the site. A couple guys are thinking of cleaning it up a bit, but no results yet. Kelly From VM Mon May 17 10:42:03 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5342" "Saturday" "15" "May" "1999" "17:00:38" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "117" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 82 (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5342 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07418 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07395 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p242.gnt.com [204.49.91.2]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA09808 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:01:58 -0500 Message-ID: <003d01be9f1e$5db1c800$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 82 (fwd) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:00:38 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of Chris W. Johnson Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 11:40 AM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 82 (fwd) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:10:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Donald L Doughty To: DC-X Subject: Space Access Update #82 5/12/99 Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Space Access Update #82 5/12/99 Copyright 1999 by Space Access Society __________________________________________________________________ Just some quick notes this issue... - Branson Tours Rotary Rocket's Mojave Facility - Political Followup - Senate and House NASA Authorizations - SA'99 New Site & Schedule Succeed, Space Access'00 Planned For April 27-29 2000 __________________________________________________________________ This just in: Richard Branson today toured Rotary Rocket Company's Mojave manufacturing and test facility. Branson, an airline executive/owner (Virgin Atlantic Airways) and sportsman/adventurer (several around-the-world balloon flight attempts) recently announced he plans a space tourism company (Virgin Galactic Spaceways) once suitable transports are available, and went on to mention Rotary Rocket's Roton as the closest to being ready of those looked into. This touched off a flurry of rumors about a Branson investment in Rotary, but Rotary representatives have been careful not to confirm or deny any such negotiations are underway. (Rotary's Gary Hudson did confirm at our recent Space Access'99 conference that to date his company has raised $30 million of the $150 million their development plans call for.) It seems a pretty safe bet under the circumstances that Rotary is in fact negotiating with Branson over an investment, and that this will likely be public knowledge soon - a crew from CBS was in evidence today in Mojave. ________________________________________________________________________ Meanwhile, back at the Congress, a progress report on the political alerts we've put out recently. The Senate Commerce Committee marked up their NASA Authorization on schedule last week; the most noteworthy change was addition of $150 million "for future planning (space launch)" in FY'00. We expected something like this and can't take credit - it looks likely to be for "Spaceliner 100"; we hope to convince key Senators to support our low-cost rocket ops demontrator program in addition to/instead of this. Your contacts were a step forward in this effort. The House Science Committee postponed their NASA Authorization markup for a week, to tomorrow, Thursday May 13th, to give them more time to work on various issues. If you haven't yet contacted your member of the Committee (assuming you have one) tomorrow morning is the final deadline for this markup. We're cautiously optimistic about some additional "Future-X" money here plus some language favorable to low-cost ops demos and the entrepreneurial startups. The Authorizations markups were the warmup, mind. Now comes the main event, the NASA Appropriations markups, where the actual money is allocated. We'll likely be asking for all-out efforts on these in the next week or two - stay tuned. ________________________________________________________________________ Space Access'99 went well, from an organizational point of view. Attendance was down slightly from last year, about what we expected given the late start we got after losing our old hotel. The new hotel worked out well, though - more modern and comfortable than the old Safari Resort, with a very helpful and friendly staff and a nice restaurant. The local shopping and restaurants aren't quite as upscale as in downtown Scottsdale, but they're close by, they're decent, and the neighborhood is very relaxed and suburban. Our experiment with a Thursday evening - Saturday night schedule went extremely well, with much less airline-schedule-induced attendance dropoff late in the conference than under the old Friday-Sunday setup - we'll be doing Thursday-Saturday next year too. We're looking at April 27-29 2000 now - it was pointed out to us that the previous weekend is Easter next year, and we try to avoid conflicts with organizations larger than us. We are talking to the same hotel again about a contract for that weekend; we hope to have the site and date for next year pinned down ASAP. More on the full program another time - for now, we'll just say that we've finally seen video of laser propulsion actually working, after twenty years of viewgraphs. Time flies when you're having fun... To everybody who made SA'99 a success - thanks! ________________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society's sole purpose is to promote near-term radical reductions in the cost of reaching space. You may redistribute this Update in any medium you choose, as long as you do it unedited and in its entirety. ________________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society http://www.space-access.org space.access@space-access.org "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere in the Solar System" - Robert Anson Heinlein From VM Mon May 17 10:42:03 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["145" "Saturday" "15" "May" "1999" "17:28:51" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "9" "starship-design: SETI" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 145 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07918 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07902 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante17.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante17.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.67]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id RAA29198 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:28:52 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante17.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id RAA22440 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:28:52 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship design Subject: starship-design: SETI Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:28:51 -0700 (PDT) This is interesting. The software for SETI@home is availiable. Check out Best Regards Nels Lindberg From VM Mon May 17 10:42:03 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["38375" "Sunday" "16" "May" "1999" "14:53:49" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "858" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 May 15" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 38375 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29009 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 16 May 1999 12:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29004 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p276.gnt.com [204.49.91.36]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA31123 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 14:54:25 -0500 Message-ID: <004101be9fd5$d0ff1120$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 May 15 Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:53:49 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: owner-spaceviews@wayback.com [mailto:owner-spaceviews@wayback.com] On Behalf Of jeff@spaceviews.com Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 1:09 PM Subject: SpaceViews -- 1999 May 15 [ SpaceViews (tm) newsletter ] [ see end of message for our NEW address to subscribe / unsubscribe ] S P A C E V I E W S Issue 1999.05.15 1999 May 15 http://www.spaceviews.com/1999/0515/ *** News *** Hail Damage Delays Shuttle Mission House Committee Cuts Triana in NASA Authorization Bill Software Problems May Have Caused Titan 4 Centaur Failure ESA Approves Budget Rainwater Leak Delays Delta GPS Launch Long March Launches Two Satellites Amateurs Plan Space Launch Students Take On Mars Mission Planning SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News *** Articles *** Bakersfield Hosts California Space Summit *** Book Reviews *** Fly Me to the Moon: Lost in Space with the Mercury Generation *** News *** Hail Damage Delays Shuttle Mission The first shuttle mission in nearly half a year will be delayed by another week to ten days to repair damage to the shuttle's external tank from a recent hailstorm, NASA announced late Thursday, May 13. Insulation on the external tank mated to shuttle Discovery, scheduled for a May 20 launch on mission STS-96, suffered damage during a hailstorm last week. An estimated 150 divots were found in the insulation during an inspection after the storm. Shuttle officials had hoped that the divots could be repaired on the launch pad, but found that some were inaccessible from the pad, requiring that the whole shuttle stack be rolled back to the vehicle assembly building (VAB) so workers can access the entire tank. The divots themselves pose no risk to the shuttle, since their relatively small size -- an average diameter of 1.25 cm (0.5 in.) and a depth of no more than 0.9 cm (0.34 in.) deep -- does not penetrate all the way through the insulation to the metal of the tank itself. However, shuttle managers are concerned that ice could form in the divots once the tanks are filled with liquid oxygen and hydrogen. Chunks of ice could then shake loose from the divots during launch, striking and damaging the shuttle orbiter. The earliest date for the rollback is early Sunday morning, May 16, since Discovery needs to be prepared for the rollback and room made in the VAB for the shuttle. Once there, repairs should take 2-3 days, allowing the shuttle to roll back to the pad by the middle of the week. If this schedule can be carried out, the launch would be delayed by one week, with an estimated launch time of 6:48 am EDT (1048 UT) May 27. If more time is needed to fix the divots, however, the launch could be pushed back an extra several days. STS-96 will be the first logistics and resupply mission for the currently-uninhabited International Space Station. A seven-person crew led by commander Kent Rominger will bring two tons of supplies to the station. Two astronauts will also perform a spacewalk to attach American and Russian cranes to the exterior of the station to transport cargo and equipment. The flight will be the first shuttle mission since December, when the shuttle Endeavour brought the Unity docking module into orbit and attached it to the previously-launched Zarya command module. The gap between missions is the longest downtime in the shuttle program since the Challenger accident. The rollback from the launch pad to the VAB will be the 13th in the history of the shuttle program and the first since September 1996, when shuttle Atlantis was rolled back as a precaution because of the threat of a hurricane. The last time a shuttle was rolled back for repairs was in June 1995, when Discovery was rolled back to repair holes in the external tank's insulation caused by woodpeckers. House Committee Cuts Triana in NASA Authorization Bill The House Science Committee approved a three-year authorization bill for NASA in a Thursday, May 13 hearing, including passing a politically-charged amendment to cut funding for the Triana Earth-observing program. H.R. 1654, which increases NASA's budget by 1% over the President's original request, also prohibits the space agency from spending money on TransHab, an inflatable module considered as a potential replacement for the space station's habitation module and future Mars missions. The focus of the debate on the legislation, though, was on an amendment offered by Reps. Dave Weldon (R-FL) and George Nethercutt (R-WA) to cut funding for the Triana mission and move $32.6 million allocated to it in the 2000 budget to life and microgravity sciences. The mission, proposed by Vice President Al Gore last year, will return high-resolution images from the Earth-Sun L1 point 1.5 million km (900,000 miles) from Earth, and also study the Sun. The program has been attacked by Republicans for its perceived failure to follow scientific peer-review guidelines in favor of political expediency. In the hearing, Weldon suggested that the program was being forced upon NASA by Gore as a way to support Gore's 2000 presidential campaign. "Maybe NASA can't stand up to the White House," he said, "but Congress certainly can." Democrats strongly rejected claims that Triana was designed to politically support the Vice President. "Somehow I don't think the Vice President needs to rely on a little remote sensing satellite to get elected," said Rep. Bart Gordon (D-TN). Gordon also told the committee that he spoke with NASA administrator Dan Goldin, who said he would recommend to President Clinton that the authorization bill be vetoed if funding for Triana was not included. "I can't believe... the administration is willing to sink an entire NASA authorization bill," said committee chairman Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI). "Their priorities are completely mixed up." The amendment was approved by a 21-18 vote that fell along party lines, while the overall authorization bill was approved by a 27-13 vote. The bill authorizes $13.625 billion in funding for NASA in fiscal year 2000, a figure that rises to $13.839 billion in 2002. This represents increase of approximately one percent over the original NASA budget proposed by President Clinton in February. The bill includes increases in funding for several projects, including a $7-million increase for near-Earth object studies (to $10 million a year), and a $12-million line item for space solar power studies. The bill also includes nearly $300 million over the next three years for advanced space transportation technology. The authorization also sets down definitions for commercialization versus privatization in NASA programs and requires NASA to conduct a study of various space shuttle upgrades as well as potential uses for the shuttle's external tank in orbit. However, H.R. 1654 includes a provision to prevent NASA from spending money on TransHab, a proposed inflatable habitation module. TransHab was originally designed for use on potential future human Mars missions, but has more recently been considered as a replacement for the habitation module under development for the International Space Station. In a statement issued after passage of the authorization bill, Sensenbrenner said the TransHab provision was added as a cost-saving measure to keep ISS costs down. The committee's approval of the authorization bill is only an early step in the budget process. The bill must be approved by the full House and reconciled with the Senate's version, which passed through the Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee May 5 with no amendment to cut Triana. Moreover, appropriations bills which actually fund the space agency have yet to be considered. Software Problems May Have Caused Titan 4 Centaur Failure Corrupted software may have been the cause of the April 30 failure of the Centaur upper stage on a Titan 4B booster, Aviation Week and Space Technology reports. In an article published in their Monday, May 10 issue, the magazine says that software uploaded into the control system for the Centaur upper stage malfunctioned, causing the stage to misfire and place its payload, a Milstar military communications satellite into the wrong orbit. Problems with the Centaur began about nine minutes after launch, during the first of three Centaur burns, when the Centaur went off course. The software may have also caused two later misfirings of the centaur and the premature deployment of the Milstar satellite. If correct, the failure suggests quality control problems at Lockheed Martin Astronautics, the division of the firm that built the Centaur upper stage. Less than a week earlier, a Lockheed Martin Athena 2 booster failed to place the Ikonos 1 satellite into orbit when the payload fairing did not separate, making the upper stage too heavy to reach orbital velocity. The software problem also means the failure is likely unrelated to the failure four days later of a Delta 3 upper stage to place the Orion 3 satellite into the proper orbit. That launch failed when the second stage of the Delta 3 did not make the second of two planned burns. Both the Centaur and the Delta 3 upper stage use versions of the RL-10 rocket engine built by Pratt and Whitney. However, the boosters themselves are different enough that they likely use different software for their control systems. ESA Approves Budget European space ministers approved a multiyear budget for the European Space Agency (ESA) this week that includes funding for Earth and space science, improvements to the Ariane 5, and a competitor to GPS. The ministers from ESA's member nations approved a budget of 2.1 billion euros (US$2.25 billion) for the period 1999-2002. This amount, ESA officials said, is sufficient for it to carry out its planned scientific programs, including the Mars Express mission in 2003. The budget also included an emphasis in new projects for the space agency. Ministers budgeted 593 million euros (US$635 million) through 2001 for its new "Living Earth" program of Earth studies from space. "The agreement to embark on the Living Planet Program is the first step towards providing an assured long-term program of research which looks at the Earth and its environment from space," said UK space minister Lord Sainsbury, who was elected chairman of the ESA Ministerial Council. "We are putting Earth sciences on a more equal footing with ESA's traditional strengths in scientific research." Ministers also agreed to spend 58.4 million euros (US$62.5 million) through 2001 on a definition study of the proposed "Galileo" navigation satellite project. This system of navigation satellites would serve the same role as American GPS satellites, but is looked upon more favorably by European nations since Galileo would not be controlled by the American military, unlike GPS. Upgrades to the Ariane 5 booster were also included in the budget. ESA will spend 533 million euros (US$570 million) until 2001 on the Ariane-5 Plus program to improve the performance of the heavy-lift booster. An additional 54 million euros (US$57.8 million) will be spent on studies of future launch systems. The budget agreement is the last financial hurdle for the Mars Express project, ESA's first mission to Mars. The project had been threatened by stringent science funding for ESA that threatened either to squeeze out funding for the 150-million euro (US$160 million) project, or delay or cancel other ESA programs to support the mission. The project still needs funding, through, for the Beagle 2 rover that will fly on the Mars Express lander. The British government has made no announcement whether it will fund the 25-million pound (US$40.5 million) rover. Colin Pillinger, lead scientist for the mission at Britain's Open University, told the BBC he is optimistic finding can be found for the rover by summer. Rainwater Leak Delays Delta GPS Launch A leak of rainwater into a Global Positioning System (GPS) satellite atop a Delta 2 rocket has delayed its launch for at least eight days, Air Force officials announced Monday, May 10. A Delta 2 was scheduled to launch on the evening of Saturday, May 15, from Cape Canaveral, Florida, carrying the Navstar 2R-3 GPS satellite into orbit. Technicians were working on the satellite in a clean room that is part of the launch tower at Pad 17A. The technicians were forced to leave the clean room when a heavy thunderstorm hit the launch site on the afternoon of Saturday, May 8. When they returned, they found that rainwater had leaked into the clean room, and moisture was found on the satellite. How rainwater managed to leak into the clean room is under investigation. The Air Force has decided to move the satellite back to a processing facility at the launch site to assess any damage done to it by the rain. Even if no damage is done to the satellite, the process of moving the satellite from and back to the launch site would delay the launch a minimum of eight days. The Delta 2 had recently been given a green light by investigators looking into the cause of the failure of a Delta 3 launch May 4. Investigators determined late last week that the problems that caused the Delta 3 to strand the Orion 3 satellite into a useless low orbit were not common to the Delta 2, which uses a different upper stage. Long March Launches Two Satellites A new variant of China's Long March booster launched weather and science satellites early Monday, May 10. A Long March 4B lifted off at 9:33 pm EDT Sunday, May 9 (0133 UT May 10) from the Taiyuan in eastern China. There were no problems with the launch, Chinese officials reported, and both satellites were successfully placed in polar orbit. The Long March carried into orbit the Feng Yun ("Wind and Cloud") 1C weather satellite. The satellite began to return images and data within a day of launch. The rocket also launched the Shi Jian ("Practice") 5 scientific satellite. The launch was the first for the Long March 4B, a variant of the Long March 4A (CZ-4A). Little is known specifically about the 4B, but it is thought to be substantially similar to the CZ-4A, a three-stage booster that uses nitrogen tetraoxide and unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine propellants. It can place up to 1,500 kg (3,300 lbs.) into polar orbit. The launch was the first for a Chinese booster this year. A Long March 2C/SD is planned to launch two replacement Iridium satellites some time next month. Amateurs Plan Space Launch A group of amateur rocketeers plan to launch later this month a rocket which, if successful, will be the first amateur booster to fly into space. JP Aerospace, a California-based amateur organization, plans to launch a rocket from a balloon the weekend of May 22-23 which they believe should reach an altitude of at least 100 km (60 miles), high enough to pass internationally-accepted boundaries marking the beginning of space. The rocket, christened "Spirit of Freedom 7" in honor of the late Alan Shepard, the first American to fly into space, will be carried aloft by a cluster of 10 helium-filled weather balloons to an altitude of approximately 30,000 meters (100,000 feet.) Liftoff will take place from the Black Rock Desert in northwestern Nevada. At that point, about ninety minutes after leaving the ground, the rocket separates from the balloons and ignites its engine. The motor burns for five seconds, accelerating the rocket to Mach 3.7. The rocket then coasts to a peak of altitude of about 100 km (60 miles) before deploying a parachute and slowly descending to Earth. The rocket itself is 2.23 meters (88 inches) long and 7.5 cm (3 inches) in diameter, and weighs 7.7 kg (17 lbs.), of which a little over half is taken up by the motor. The launch attempt is the cumulation of several years of work by the amateur group, who has tested various versions of the rocket and balloon system since 1993. A previous attempt at a space launch in September 1998 was aborted when a tether snapped minutes before balloon liftoff. This is not the first attempt by an amateur group -- one not funded by a corporation or government agency -- to launch a rocket into orbit. The High-Altitude Lift-Off (HALO) project, by HAL-5, the Huntsville, Alabama chapter of the National Space Society, developed a similar "rockoon" system, although with a different type of rocket. A May 1997 launch by Project HALO sent a rocket to an altitude of approximately 65 km (40 mi.), despite a premature rupture of the balloon. However, an attempt to launch a rocket into space in June 1998 failed when a tether snagged on the rocket as the balloon lifted off from a barge in the Gulf of Mexico, knocking the rocket out of launch cradle and onto the deck of the barge. Additional attempts have been stymied by a lack of money. While these amateur efforts are typically attempted to prove it can be done, there may be money for a future success. The Space Frontier Foundation is sponsoring the Cheap Access To Space (CATS) Prize, which will award $250,000 to the first amateur rocket to launch a 2-kg (4.4-lb.) payload to an altitude of at least 200 km (120 mi.) by November 8, 2000. Students Take On Mars Mission Planning Once strictly the province of NASA experts, students are becoming increasingly involved with the development of credible, innovative proposals for human missions to Mars, as the efforts of two recent groups show. While a team of California Institute of Technology students, affiliated with the Mars Society, develops a new proposal for sending humans to the Red Planet, a group at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard University is putting together a business plan to finance such a mission. Caltech's Mars Society Mission, unveiled in public presentations earlier this month, is a mission architecture that strikes a compromise between NASA's existing Design Reference Mission and the Mars Direct proposal developed and advocated by Mars Society founder Robert Zubrin. Under the Caltech proposal, two spacecraft would be launched in the 2011 launch window, using a new heavy-lift booster named Qahira (Arabic for "Mars"), based on Boeing's Delta IV. One would carry an Earth-return vehicle that would be parked in orbit around Mars, while the other, nearly identical vehicle would land on the surface and start generating propellant for a future trip into Mars orbit. In early 2014 two more launches would take place: one of a spare Mars ascent/Earth return vehicle, and a separate crew habitat vehicle that would take five people to Mars and land them on the surface on May 25, 2014. After spending over 600 days on the surface, the crew would return to Mars orbit using the fueled-up ascent vehicle, and then rendezvous with the Earth return vehicle in Mars orbit for the trip home. The mission proposal takes a middle path between the Mars Direct mission and its four-person crew and the NASA plans, which call for a six-person crew. "The Mars Society Mission fixes the problems with these plans by avoiding over-optimistic assumptions and politically sensitive technologies, such as nuclear thermal rocketry," said team member Nathan Brown. In addition, the team says, built in redundancy makes their proposal safer for the crew than previous plans. While the Caltech group develops a new way to send people to Mars, a group of students at MIT and Harvard are coming up with new ways to pay for the mission. The "Think Mars" project is an effort to develop a business plan that would find private funding for a Mars mission. Using the NASA reference mission model as the basis for the mission, the team is exploring a number of avenues to fund the estimated $50 billion mission. Those plans range from Olympic-style sponsorships to the sale of television and Internet rights of mission broadcasts. The business plan was originally developed as part of a NASA-sponsored competition to develop such plans. After being selected as one of six finalists, the Think Mars team decided to take their efforts even further, and have enlisted new members from outside MIT and Harvard to develop the plan into a viable business. "The pool of people who can join is literally anyone who has access to the Internet," noted Think Mars co-founder Justin Talbot-Stern. Think Mars submitted its business plan to MIT's "$50K" Entrepreneurship Competition, a contest that has helped start a number of new high technology businesses. The plan was selected as one of 39 semifinalists, alongside biotech and Internet startups. The team plans to present its plan to NASA officials in May at a final meeting with other schools participating. However, the project plans to continue, with Congressional outreach meetings planned for the summer and an educational "Mars Week" to be held at MIT in October. SpaceViews Event Horizon May 18 Pegasus XL launch of the TERRIERS and MUBLCOM satellites, staged from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California, at 1:05 am EDT (0505 UT). May 20 Proton launch of the Nimiq-1 comsat from Baikonur, Kazakhastan. May 23 (NET) Delta 2 launch of Navstar 2R-3 GPS satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida (under review) May 27 (NET) Launch of the space shuttle Discovery on mission STS-96 from Kennedy Space Center, Florida. May 27-31 International Space Development Conference, Houston, Texas May TBD Atlas 2A launch of the GOES-L weather satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida (under review) June 7 Long March 2C/SD launch of two Iridium satellites from Taiyuan, China June 23-24 First U.S. Space Tourism Conference, Washington, DC June TBD Titan 4B launch of the Lacrosse F4 satellite from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California (under review) NET = Not Earlier Than Other News ISS Costs Rise: Russian contingency planning and overruns by the prime contractor are driving up the costs of the International Space Station, the General Accounting Office reports. In recently-released testimony from a Senate hearing last month, GAO associate director Allen Li said NASA will have to spend an additional $1.2 billion in Russian contingency planning, including the development of a propulsion module should Russia be unable to build Progress spacecraft to reboost the station. Li also said Boeing's cost overrun on the space station prime contract is now nearly $1 billion, up from $783 million last June. The GAO is also concerned about a lack of shielding for orbital debris on the Russian service module, Li said, noting that is the module is depressurized by a collision the entire station might have to be evacuated. Spacecraft Ready for Y2K: NASA, military, and commercial spacecraft should not suffer problems from the "Y2K bug" on January 1, a panel of experts told a House committee May 12. All of NASA's mission-critical systems, except for the SOHO spacecraft, are Y2K-compliant already, and SOHO and other non-critical systems will be compliant in a few months. The only problems may stem from older commercial GPS receivers, which may not be able to deal with both Y2K and a "week number rollover" August 21, when the week number, used by GPS to keep track of time, rolls over from 1,023 to 0. GPS satellites and ground stations will be unaffected by the rollover, panelists said. Jupiter's Supersonic Winds: Astronomers have found evidence that winds at Jupiter's poles reach speeds of 10,000 km/h (6,000 mph), according to a paper published in the May 13 issue of Nature. The winds are driven by Jupiter's aurorae, which in turn come from an interaction with the planet's powerful magnetic field. Friction between the fast "auroral electrojet" and slower winds may explain why Jupiter's upper atmosphere is much warmer than can be explained by solar heating alone. Brown Dwarf Weather: Australian astronomers have found evidence that brown dwarfs -- objects more massive than planets but too small to become stars -- may have clouds and weather patterns like planets. Astronomers found variations in the brightness of one brown dwarf at a wavelength of light associated with titanium oxide, a compound linked in theory with cloud formation at the 2000-degree temperatures found in brown dwarfs. The astronomers plan to look at other brown dwarfs to see if they also exhibit weather patterns. Space Imaging Plans: Space Imaging plans to launch its Ikonos-2 satellite -- a twin to the Ikonos-1 high-resolution Earth-imaging satellite that failed to reach orbit last month -- as soon as July, a company official said this week. Mark Brender, director of Washington operations for the company, said engineers believe a wire failed to transmit a signal to trigger explosive bolts on the payload fairing of the Athena II rocket during its April 27 launch, keeping the nose cone in place, which in turn kept the payload too massive from reaching orbit. Brender said the company could launch Ikonos-2, which was already completed prior to the launch of Ikonos-1, as soon as July 20. Briefly: You've got satellites? America Online (AOL) may invest $1 billion in Hughes' Spaceway system of communications satellites designed to deliver high-speed data, Reuters reported May 14. AOL is reportedly interested in getting high-speed access to homes by means other than cable, where deals by AT&T, Microsoft, and others have locked AOL out. Someone should remind AOL's Steve Case that for a little bit more, he could invest in a launch company to cheaply deliver such satellites... China is planning a test flight of a spacecraft that could carry humans into space as early as October, the BBC reported. The flight of the "Project 921" capsule, based on the Russian Soyuz, would coincide with 50th anniversary celebrations of the People's Republic. If successful, a human spaceflight would shortly follow... AeroAstro has won a contract to build what it bills as the first commercial interplanetary spacecraft. The "Encounter 2001" spacecraft will fly as a secondary payload on an Ariane 5 in late 2001 and swingby Jupiter on its way out of the solar system. The spacecraft will carry photos, messages, and DNA samples from thousands of customers... Remember all those missions that carry CD-ROM's filled with names, photos, and the like? Salon Magazine notes that the harsh radiation environment in places like the surface of Mars would destroy the CD in a matter of days. A radiation-proof case is possible, but unaffordable by projects like the Mars 2001 lander. At least, the magazine notes, you don't have to worry about your name getting put on a hit list when the Martians invade... *** Articles *** Bakersfield Hosts California Space Summit by Neil E. Michaels Bakersfield, California has long had an image as a home as a nondescript city in the southern end of the San Juaquin Valley, home to agriculture, oil workers, country music, and little else. Yet, to those who live and work there -- and who move away only to come back -- Bakersfield is the "center of the universe". There are a growing number of people and businesses, though, who would like to make Bakersfield and the surrounding region of Kern County, which includes Edwards Air Force Base, more of a center of the commercial space universe. Against this backdrop, the California Space Development Council (CSDC) -- composed of representatives from the various California chapters of the National Space Society -- rolled into Kern County on May 1 for a weekend "Space Summit" at California State University Bakersfield. Hosted by the National Space Society's Western Spaceport Chapter, the event drew space buffs from around the state to discuss the latest technology and spread the word about the future of space travel to the media, local political leaders and the general public at large. Over 60 participants came from as far south as San Diego and Orange County, to as far north as Sacramento and the Bay area; from Santa Maria to the west and Mojave/Lancaster/Palmdale in the east. "There's no good reason why the human race has to stay locked on the Earth forever," said Donald Johnson, CSDC Vice President of events. CSDC has been working since the mid-80s to create a space-friendly mindset among the general public, which Johnson called the biggest challenge to creating extraterrestrial communities. "It's not science fiction," Johnson said, "since the technology is almost at hand." X-34 Tug-of-War A key speaker at the conference represented government and aerospace: California state Senator and former X-15 test pilot William "Pete" Knight. Knight's participation was the central point to the Space Summit; it was an extension to two earlier events he had hosted in the cities of Lancaster and Ridgecrest to address the aerospace issues that are critically important to the economic growth of California. Knight used the talk to push for moving the planned test flights later this year of NASA's X-34 from Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico to Edwards, where much of the X-34's early drop tests have been held. Knight noted that Holloman can only support flights to speeds of Mach 2 to 3, well below the X-34's designed limit of Mach 8. "It doesn't make any sense to have a test program with all the elements based out here in California go somewhere else," Knight emphatically stated. "There is no reason for it to go anywhere else," Knight said. "This is where it is supposed to be." Testing for the X-34 has been up in the air since March, when Acting Secretary of the Air Force F. Whitten Peters expressed concern that X-34 testing would interfere with operations at Holloman AFB in New Mexico. NASA said it would move the testing to the Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards AFB, but that move has set off a political tug-of-war between the New Mexico and California congressional delegations. Regional Commercial Space Efforts Much of the conference was devoted to plans by regional businesses to take advantage of the growing commercial space market, from the development of new launch vehicles to services that would take advantage of those launchers. NSS member Randa Milliron from InterOrbital Systems and TransLunar Research is one of the many start-ups taking root in Kern County who are trying to make the rocket business work by making their products more affordable. "We're going for cheap," Milliron said. "Cheap, cheap, cheap." Part of her company's plans call for launching a rocket, appropriately called "Neptune" directly from the sea -- without the expensive infrastructure currently being used by the multinational Sea Launch project. The Neptune design is nothing more than a "Big Dumb Booster" using off-the-shelf hardware to save costs, she said. "The technology is proven," Milliron explained. "It draws directly from the earlier work of rocket pioneer Bob Truax." "Small businesses will be crucial to the effort," said John Powell, president of JP Aerospace in Davis, CA. "It's going to be the small, unknown group -- the people you haven't heard about yet." Powell's amateur organization plans to launch the first-ever amateur rocket into space from Black Rock, Nevada on May 22. A "Good Houskeeping Seal" for RLVs? Still other private enterprise rocket builders like Stephen Wurst wants a kind of "Good Housekeeping Seal" of approval from the Federal Aviation Administration for his spaceship and others like it. "An FAA licensing standard for reusable launch vehicles could provide the boost of credibility that serious start-up companies need," said Wurst, president of Palmdale-based Space Access, LLC. The space entrepreneur explained to attendees that he had just returned that Saturday morning after spending the previous week in Washington, D.C. at FAA headquarters going through the licensing process as kind of a test case. "I'm totally impressed with their objectivity and their enthusiasm in working with us," Wurst said of the FAA. The proposed process of FAA criteria would create certain safety and reliability levels for RLV launches. "The result wouldn't be a rating," Wurst stated, "but simply a thumbs up or thumbs down response." But Wurst wants to take the process one step further. He wants the government to be required to purchase some launches from FAA-approved companies. Wurst and others want the government to regulate and promote but also allow the emerging private industry to spur new development. With about a dozen start-up companies, Wurst feels there is enough competition in the private sector. "They are not going to drop a system like the space shuttle overnight," Wurst stated, "But the government needs to let go." "Let's say the space shuttle and us," Wurst said. "We're not saying give us all the business -- but give us some portion of the business. Local Reaction "The comments I heard and personally received from others were highly favorable," exclaimed Jim Spellman, local director of the NSS/Western Spaceport Chapter and CSDC President. "More than one person was amazed at the turnout and interest shown by the local general public. Although I can't vouch for the attendance figures at Ridgecrest's Space Summit, I'm certain our "head count" was much higher than the Space Summit I attended last March in Lancaster." Seeing and touching actual hardware and learning how interconnected the roles of various private aerospace companies based in Kern County are helping to open up the space frontier seems to make the dream of space travel for the average person that much closer to becoming reality. So how much longer will the dream take? "An optimist would say 20 years," CSDC VP Donald Johnson said. "I don't know. I've been involved with the movement for about 30 (years), since I was in school." "But it's coming." -- Neil E. Michaels is a member of the NSS's Western Spaceport chapter. For more information about the next CSDC meeting, August 7-8 in Oakland, contact Jeanmarie Walker at jeanmariew@mindspring.com or go to the CSDC website for schedule updates at: http://home.earthlink.net/~cew/csdc/ *** Book Reviews *** by Jeff Foust Fly Me to the Moon Fly Me to the Moon: Lost in Space with the Mercury Generation by Bryan Ethier McGregor Publishing, 1999 hardcover, 240 pp. ISBN 0-9653846-5-9 US$23.95 Buy this book at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0965384659/spaceviews The early days of NASA -- from the first Mercury flights through the Apollo landing -- had a tremendous impact not only on the national in general, but upon the children of the era, whose impressions of space flight and exploration were molded by those programs. Today, those children are now approaching middle-age, with families of their own, and often wonder if their children will experience and appreciate space in the same way. Bryan Ethier, a writer who grew up in the 1960s, tells his and others' stories in "Fly Me to the Moon: Lost in Space with the Mercury Generation." Ethier's book is more than just a personal memoir of growing up during NASA's heyday in the 1960s. He combines stories and accounts from a wide range of people, from Mercury 7 astronauts like John Glenn and the late Alan Shepard to others who grew up inspired by the space program, including some who went on to become astronauts and mission controllers. The book is almost written in a stream-of-consciousness style, mixing in the memories and stories from himself and others to show how that early era of spaceflight shaped the lives of a whole generation of people. Interwoven nostalgia is all Ethier needs to make his book compelling, though. This book is especially valuable because the "Mercury Generation" is now in middle age. The next generation, the putative "Generation X", has no recollection of Mercury or even Apollo -- their formative space memory is the Challenger accident, coloring their perceptions of space accordingly. "Generation Y", the younger successors to Generation X, are too young to even remember Challenger, and have experienced no comparable event. A book like "Fly Me to the Moon" can help rekindle those fond memories of the past, and perhaps help instill a little of that vision into the next generation. [Editor's Note: Look for more book and Web site reviews in the May 22 issue.] ======== This has been the May 15, 1999, issue of SpaceViews. SpaceViews is also available on the World Wide web from the SpaceViews home page: http://www.spaceviews.com/ or via anonymous FTP from ftp.seds.org: ftp://ftp.seds.org/pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews/text/19990515.txt To unsubscribe from SpaceViews, send mail to: majordomo@spaceviews.com In the body (not subject) of the message, type: unsubscribe spaceviews For editorial questions and article submissions for SpaceViews, including letters to the editor, contact the editor, Jeff Foust, at jeff@spaceviews.com For questions about the SpaceViews mailing list, please contact spaceviews-approval@spaceviews.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- - - To NOT receive future newsletters, send this message to our NEW address: - To: majordomo@SpaceViews.com - Subject: anything - unsubscribe SpaceViews - - E-Mail List services provided by Northern Winds: www.nw.net - - SpaceViews (tm) is published for the National Space Society (NSS), - copyright (C) Boston Chapter of National Space Society - www.spaceviews.com www.nss.org (jeff@spaceviews.com) From VM Thu May 20 14:16:42 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["143" "Thursday" "20" "May" "1999" "14:35:09" "-0700" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "3" "starship-design: PBS: Voyage to the milky way" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 143 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29273 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29226 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin36.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.36]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA28736; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:43:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3744800D.4A896E34@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" , "erps-list@LunaCity.com" Subject: starship-design: PBS: Voyage to the milky way Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:09 -0700 For all the people that missed the TV show on PBS yesterday, you can view the web site and ask a question or two. http://www.pbs.org/milkyway/ From VM Fri May 21 14:57:57 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2225" "Friday" "21" "May" "1999" "17:52:54" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "68" "starship-design: Fwd: Spaceinfo" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2225 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14706 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14672 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (302) by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id nRSUa02608; Fri, 21 May 1999 17:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_eba7404f.24772fb6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: moschleg@erols.com, Sdudley6@aol.com, MARK.A.JENSEN@cpmx.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com, JohnFrance@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, bbbark@surfree.com, jcavelos@empire.net, RICKJ@btio.com, Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Spaceinfo Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:52:54 EDT --part1_eba7404f.24772fb6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_eba7404f.24772fb6_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ya05.mx.aol.com (rly-ya05.mail.aol.com [172.18.144.197]) by air-ya03.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Thu, 20 May 1999 11:05:24 -0400 Received: from bastion.mail.sprint.com (bastion3.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.131]) by rly-ya05.mx.aol.com (vx) with SMTP; Thu, 20 May 1999 11:05:12 -0400 Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion3.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP for kellyst@aol.com; Thu, 20 May 1999 10:04:12 -0500 Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Thu, 20 May 1999 10:04:50 -0500 Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09546 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 10:04:49 -0500 (CDT) From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA01708 for kellyst@aol.com; Thu, 20 May 1999 10:04:48 -0500 (CDT) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:04:47 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: Spaceinfo TO: kellyst@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-0234760d-00000001" --openmail-part-0234760d-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some space links I thought you might find interesting. One next generation launcher systems http://msia02.msi.se/~lindsey/RLVCountdown.html http://www.affordablespaceflight.com/nasa1.html http://www.affordablespaceflight.com/home.html http://www.reston.com/nasa/launch.html On Space Access' specific design http://www.wtn.org/crda/payloads.htm http://www.spaceaccess.com/ New, more practical, partial skyhook like design http://www.affordablespaceflight.com/howitworks.html Great quotes http://highways.net/affordablespaceflight/quotes.html --openmail-part-0234760d-00000001-- --part1_eba7404f.24772fb6_boundary-- From VM Wed May 26 10:46:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5694" "Friday" "21" "May" "1999" "23:17:13" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "135" "starship-design: Billionaires Target Space Tourism" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "starship-design: Billionaires Target Space Tourism" nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5694 Content-Length: 5694 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23336 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 21 May 1999 20:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23323 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 20:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (303) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id nYWPa02108; Fri, 21 May 1999 23:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1fa96b51.24777bb9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1fa96b51.24777bb9_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: moschleg@erols.com, Sdudley6@aol.com, MARK.A.JENSEN@cpmx.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com, JohnFrance@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, bbbark@surfree.com, jcavelos@empire.net, info@new-utopia.com, RICKJ@btio.com, indy@the-line.com, Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl Subject: starship-design: Billionaires Target Space Tourism Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:17:13 EDT --part1_1fa96b51.24777bb9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_1fa96b51.24777bb9_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc05.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:43:53 -0400 Received: from bastion.mail.sprint.com (bastion3.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.131]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id PAA11700; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion3.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:42:51 -0500 Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:43:52 -0500 Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00777; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:43:50 -0500 (CDT) From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA29139; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:43:50 -0500 (CDT) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:43:47 -0500 Message-Id: TO: kellyst@aol.com, kryswalker@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-023bb7fb-00000001" --openmail-part-023bb7fb-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Billionaires Target Space Tourism Two New Companies Add Reality to Space Future's Vision =20 Over the past few weeks, two self-made billionaire businessmen have established companies with the stated objective of playing roles in the commercial space tourism industry that is becoming increasingly widely recognized as the true future of space activities. =20 Virgin Galactic Airways has been established in Britain by Richard Branson, the founder and chairman of Virgin Atlantic Airways and other Virgin Group companies, to provide space tourism services. Staff are currently visiting companies working on reusable launch vehicles - though they're downplaying expectations that they will make any major moves soon. Branson announced more than 2 years ago that one day he hoped to offer space travel services - but only after the race to perform the first round-the-world balloon flight was over. True to his word, he is now moving in that direction, and it will be very interesting to follow the moves he makes in this new field. =20 Bigelow Aerospace has been established in Las Vegas by Robert Bigelow, the founder and president of Budget Suites of America, a hotel and apartment chain in the southern United States, and a group of related companies. Based on its founder's expertise in building and operating popular low-cost accommodation on Earth, Bigelow Aerospace is planning to "design, develop, assemble and market fully equipped, modular habitats that can be deployed as safe, financially viable space complexes". Thus it is aiming to provide accommodation in space rather than transportation services to carry guests between Earth and space. Bigelow Aerospace is currently hiring staff: advertisements have been placed in Space News, Aviation Week and elsewhere. Like Virgin Galactic, Bigelow Aerospace is playing down the idea that it will make any dramatic moves soon. =20 The Power of Entrepreneurs =20 The emergence of Richard Branson and Robert Bigelow as business champions in the new field of space tourism fits Space Future's vision exactly. As recognition of the enormous business potential in this area grows, it is becoming attractive to successful business-people with a taste for pioneering. =20 It is worth noting that self-made business-people have much greater freedom to take new initiatives than the heads of large publicly-held companies, whose shareholders generally keep strong pressure on them to keep to the areas in which they already have expertise. (Some years ago Richard Branson even took his company private after finding the influence of institutional shareholders too constraining.) So the arrival in 1999 of two experienced entrepreneurs with the ability to invest hundreds of $millions to develop space tourism without needing to seek approval from anyone (except their families!) is very promising. =20 It will be extremely interesting to follow the moves these companies make in future, decided with the aim of making money from space tourism. If their leaders can successfully apply their exceptional business skills in this new arena of activity, the names of Bigelow and Virgin will become as famous in future as Cunard and Boeing are in older travel industries. =20 Space Future wishes both companies the greatest good fortune. And we hope that their founders will be as successful in offering space tourism services as they have been to date in other areas of business. =20 See also "Billionaire Shops for Space Tourism Vehicle", Space News, May 10, 1999, p 6. =20 --openmail-part-023bb7fb-00000001-- --part1_1fa96b51.24777bb9_boundary-- From VM Wed May 26 10:46:04 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["359" "Saturday" "22" "May" "1999" "13:34:18" "-0700" "N. Lindberg" "nlindber@u.washington.edu" nil "9" "starship-design: Clarke's Laws" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "starship-design: Clarke's Laws" nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 359 Content-Length: 359 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA08703 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08681 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante03.u.washington.edu (nlindber@dante03.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.5]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id NAA35622 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:34:19 -0700 Received: from localhost (nlindber@localhost) by dante03.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id NAA70002 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:34:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "N. Lindberg" From: "N. Lindberg" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship design Subject: starship-design: Clarke's Laws Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Hello All, I have heard of Clarke's 2nd Law, "All sufficiently advanced technology is indisitnguishable from magic", But i have always heard that second-hand, usually in discussions about human ET relations. I was wondering if anyone on the group knew what the title of clarke's original essay/book having to do with the "laws" was. Thanks, Nels Lindberg From VM Wed May 26 10:18:13 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2586" "Wednesday" "26" "May" "1999" "06:01:39" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "55" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: X-33 Tank Delivered, Strength Questioned" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2586 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA18193 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 26 May 1999 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA18185 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 04:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p217.gnt.com [204.49.89.217]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA28827 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 06:02:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bea767$2175f040$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: X-33 Tank Delivered, Strength Questioned Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:01:39 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of Chris W. Johnson Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 10:42 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: X-33 Tank Delivered, Strength Questioned Summary of "X-33 Tank Delivered, Strength Questioned" by Michael A. Dornheim in Aviation Week & Space Technology, May 10, 1999, pp 68-69: "Lockheed Martin has delivered [the right-hand] X-33 composite liquid hydrogen tank to NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center for testing, showing that the experimental rocket program is beginning to recover form a large structural failure of a tank in December." * Tests indicate that the right-hand "tank is weaker than expected, and engineers are trying to calculate what, if any, strength margin remains." * The left-hand liquid hydrogen tank was more extensively damaged during the Dec. 23, 1998, autoclave cycle than previously thought. "Besides the massive delamination of one of the four graphite/epoxy honeycomb tank walls, another wall (lobe skin No. 4) sprung loose from the graphite/epoxy frame that holds the walls and end domes together." * Subsequent tests have shown that the bond between the tank wall's honeycomb core and its face sheets is 25% weaker than expected under tension. Shear strength is what's really important, however, and engineers are still trying to reach useful conclusions about it. Directly testing it would be destructive. It is believed that the minimum 1.25 safety factor is still met, though. * The tank (left-hand) "should be delivered to Marshall for tests by July or August." * Questions are being raised about X-33 performance. Intended to fly to Mach 15, its ability to reach that speed is in doubt. T. Cleon Lacefield, LockMart X-33 program manager, states that it should reach Mach 13, at a minimum. That is still sufficient to test the vehicle's thermal protection system. However, some engineers are reporting that X-33's top speed will really be Mach 10, and that this has been known within the project for some time. "Weight is the culprit. The weight at main engine cutoff has risen to 83,900 lb. from the initial specification of 69,000 lb., a 20% growth. But Lacefield says people may be confused by an upper limit of Mach 11 to stay within Michael AAF." Chris W. Johnson | "Do we realize that industry, | which has been our good servant, chrisj@mail.utexas.edu | might make a poor master?" http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/ | --Aldo Leopold, 1925 From VM Thu May 27 12:47:09 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["404" "Thursday" "27" "May" "1999" "12:40:45" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "8" "starship-design: purported \"warp-drive\" breakthrough" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 404 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA27064 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27014 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [204.214.99.68]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26246 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13278; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:40:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14157.40893.183400.982253@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: purported "warp-drive" breakthrough Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:40:45 -0700 (PDT) I can't believe I seem to be beating Kyle to posting this, but one of the top stories on slashdot.org today concerns a paper claiming that the energy requirements for an Alcubierre-style "warp bubble" can be drastically reduced, particularly that the negative energy required is now only on the order of grams (still, assuming you can make negative energy at all). http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9905084 From VM Thu May 27 14:50:57 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["238" "Thursday" "27" "May" "1999" "16:45:10" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "8" "Re: starship-design: purported \"warp-drive\" breakthrough" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 238 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00006 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29952 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-24.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.24]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00476 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374DD906.EA79E50E@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <14157.40893.183400.982253@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: purported "warp-drive" breakthrough Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:45:10 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > I can't believe I seem to be beating Kyle to posting this, Not a problem! I'm glad you heard about it. I've been too busy lately to look for things like this. Thanks for reporting this. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Thu May 27 16:52:46 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["906" "Thursday" "27" "May" "1999" "18:48:38" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "25" "RE: starship-design: purported \"warp-drive\" breakthrough" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 906 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23683 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23673 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p262.gnt.com [204.49.91.22]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA15258; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:49:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000001bea89b$70e537a0$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <14157.40893.183400.982253@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Steve VanDevender" Cc: "Starship-Design" Subject: RE: starship-design: purported "warp-drive" breakthrough Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:48:38 -0500 Hmm, I can't seem to get the pdf version to download and I don't have ghostscript installed on my NT workstation. Does anybody have the full text in either pdf or txt? Lee Parker > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Steve > VanDevender > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:41 PM > To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: starship-design: purported "warp-drive" breakthrough > > > I can't believe I seem to be beating Kyle to posting this, but > one of the top stories on slashdot.org today concerns a paper > claiming that the energy requirements for an Alcubierre-style > "warp bubble" can be drastically reduced, particularly that the > negative energy required is now only on the order of grams > (still, assuming you can make negative energy at all). > http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9905084 From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1870" "Saturday" "29" "May" "1999" "22:50:12" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "52" "starship-design: Fwd: Space news and our Russian partners" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1870 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23307 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 29 May 1999 19:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23301 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 19:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (302) by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id nZFIa02577; Sat, 29 May 1999 22:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_d47e6c5d.24820164_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: moschleg@erols.com, Sdudley6@aol.com, MARK.A.JENSEN@cpmx.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com, JohnFrance@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, bbbark@surfree.com, jcavelos@empire.net, Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Space news and our Russian partners Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:50:12 EDT --part1_d47e6c5d.24820164_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_d47e6c5d.24820164_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v59.24) with SMTP; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:36 -0400 Received: from bastion2-ext.mail.sprint.com (bastion2.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.130]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA19993 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion2.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP for kellyst@aol.com; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:59:35 -0500 Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:59:34 -0500 Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21893 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:59:33 -0500 (CDT) From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA18499 for kellyst@aol.com; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:59:33 -0500 (CDT) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:59:27 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: Space news and our Russian partners TO: kellyst@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-0254aac9-00000001" --openmail-part-0254aac9-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.reston.com/nasa/watch.html http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/052599_russ25_19.htm --openmail-part-0254aac9-00000001-- --part1_d47e6c5d.24820164_boundary-- From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1165" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "17:09:24" "+1000" "AJ Crowl" "ajcrowlx2@ozemail.com.au" nil "25" "starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1165 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA02649 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 04:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpgate.syd.primus.com.au (comerc.primus.com.au [203.134.0.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA02644 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 04:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default ([203.134.13.243]) by smtpgate.syd.primus.com.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.977.9); Mon, 31 May 1999 21:06:33 +1000 Message-ID: <000001beab56$68a789e0$f30d86cb@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "AJ Crowl" From: "AJ Crowl" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:09:24 +1000 Hi Group, Alcubierre's original design was flawed by the size of the warp-bubble which requires immense amounts of energy to create. Such bubbles have an energy E ~ R^2 / Lp , where Lp is the planck length [1.6 x 10^-35 m !], so for any velocity V the total energy for his design was ~ -6.2 x 10^62 kg * v, which is about 10^10 times the mass of the visible Universe for even just lightspeed. So how to avoid such a HUGE energy bill? Make the geometry different and fit your flat space [R ~ 200m] into a tiny warp bubble {tiny ~ 2000 Lp}which is possible. Doctor Who's TARDIS couldn't do better. For the same energy [milligrams] as the bubble slows down it gets larger, until you can get out again, but the bubble walls become thinner than Lp very quickly, so it's unclear whether it can be done. Planck's length is the limit of space fuzz, as far as we know. Chris Van Den Broeck, the designer, is a bit unclear and he's not too sure what process would produce enough negative energy to make an Alcubierre warp, but he hopes that his proof of principle study will inspire more brains to work on it. So that's our challenge... Adam Is your God image an idol? From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["606" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "08:46:58" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "21" "starship-design: warp bubbles" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 606 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA15136 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 07:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15130 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 07:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin46.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.46]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01849 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 08:54:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3752A0E2.EB56205F@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000001beab56$68a789e0$f30d86cb@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: warp bubbles Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:46:58 -0600 If we can create a warp bubble will it have the same characteristics as our unviverse. What will happen to all the heat from the space-ship inside a bubble? What is needed is a tube of warp bubbles where the speed of light is a lot less than C. Say C of 1000C. Assuming time stands still and the energy cost is lower for low values of C.( I got lost in the math ). We can do this. accellerate (bubble ring)# ship #(bubble ring) to .001C Create bubbles # .*@( Ship )@*. # and time stops. ( wait untill we get there) Turn off Bubble rings and slow down. Then explore planet. From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["255" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "10:26:34" "-0500" "Gene Marlin" "rmarlin@network-one.com" nil "11" "Re: starship-design: warp bubbles" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 255 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA18254 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 08:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun2.network-one.com (sun2.network-one.com [209.149.88.20]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18246 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from premio (fmodem31.network-one.com [209.149.88.80]) by sun2.network-one.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA3CD2 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 10:28:11 -0500 Message-ID: <002001beab79$fa46f7a0$505895d1@premio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gene Marlin" From: "Gene Marlin" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: Re: starship-design: warp bubbles Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:26:34 -0500 > >We can do this. But the first problem is gathering enough energy to create a bubble. How would that compare to relativistic travel? I have read that entire universes of energy would be required to run the Alcubierre drive, even a scaled-down one. From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2508" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "11:18:53" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "43" "Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2508 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26055 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26045 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-20.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.20]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03593 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 12:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3752D28D.106A7773@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000001beab56$68a789e0$f30d86cb@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:18:53 -0700 AJ Crowl wrote: > > Hi Group, > > Alcubierre's original design was flawed by the size of the warp-bubble which > requires immense amounts of energy to create. Such bubbles have an energy E > ~ R^2 / Lp , where Lp is the planck length [1.6 x 10^-35 m !], so for any > velocity V the total energy for his design was ~ -6.2 x 10^62 kg * v, which > is about 10^10 times the mass of the visible Universe for even just > lightspeed. So how to avoid such a HUGE energy bill? Correct. But consider this: if it is found that spacetime can be bent by means other than concentration of mass, I.E., you can produce some kind of 'field' that interacts with space more strongly than matter, your problems could be solved. How can this be done? Good question... > Make the geometry different and fit your flat space [R ~ 200m] into a tiny warp bubble > {tiny ~2000 Lp}which is possible. Doctor Who's TARDIS couldn't do better. For the > same energy [milligrams] as the bubble slows down it gets larger, until you > can get out again, but the bubble walls become thinner than Lp very quickly, > so it's unclear whether it can be done. Planck's length is the limit of > space fuzz, as far as we know. Chris Van Den Broeck, the designer, is a bit > unclear and he's not too sure what process would produce enough negative > energy to make an Alcubierre warp, but he hopes that his proof of principle > study will inspire more brains to work on it. Negative energy might not be the key, see above. There are some scientists, notable Terence W. Barrett and H. David Froning, who have taken a 'step back', so to speak. They note, and I agree with them, that there are too many speculated points in all these theories about faster than light travel. Simply writing up a paper that says 'this is how you travel FTL' is no good, in my mind. First, we must try to answer some basic questions, such as: what is spacetime? What are its properties? How can we interact with it? What is the nature of the speed of light? Granted, we have theories such as relativity, that help us to picture what happens, but we still do not know much about it. Light is a very curious form of energy. It is not clear what the factors are that limit it to 300,000 km/sec. Once we understand these factors, we may be closer to knowing what it takes to travel faster than light. Who knows? It might turn out to be simpler than what we currently think. But I don't think we will be able to do it for at least a few hundred years. Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["275" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "14:56:29" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "11" "starship-design: What is this???" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 275 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29836 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29826 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 13:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-20.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.20]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18162 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3753058D.10B00A36@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: What is this??? Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:56:29 -0700 SSD: Very strange website...people who claim they have already solved all the problems of interstellar travel. http://www.unitelnw.com While they *do* have PhD physicists on their list of associates, I think its a little too good to be true. Opinions? Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["525" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "15:05:05" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: What is this???" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 525 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12110 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12104 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 14:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin39.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.39]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA19103 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 15:12:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3752F981.F4C2A9F4@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3753058D.10B00A36@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: What is this??? Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:05:05 -0600 "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > > SSD: > > Very strange website...people who claim they have already solved all the > problems of interstellar travel. > > http://www.unitelnw.com > > While they *do* have PhD physicists on their list of associates, I think > its a little too good to be true. Opinions? > > Kyle R. Mcallister The whoossh sound and enterprise speeding across the star field background would be more realistic material than what is written there. Untill they give me hard equations I will remain skeptic. From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:02 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["74" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "17:00:00" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "2" "starship-design: another fusion design " "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 74 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02674 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02640 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin55.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.55]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA24766 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 17:07:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37531470.3BE681F6@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: another fusion design Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:00:00 -0600 At http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan/ check out the PLASMAK links. From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:03 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["132" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "22:06:02" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "5" "starship-design: Almost Space craft " "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 132 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21380 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 21:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21364 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 21:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin39.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.39]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA09685; Mon, 31 May 1999 22:13:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37535C2A.A2192849@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" , "erps-list@LunaCity.com" Subject: starship-design: Almost Space craft Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:06:02 -0600 3D renerings of space craft that never left the drawing board from the 50's to the 70's http://www.deepcold.com/intro_main.html From VM Tue Jun 1 09:47:03 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["103" "Monday" "31" "May" "1999" "23:04:04" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "2" "starship-design: Historical space craft " "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 103 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00069 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 31 May 1999 22:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00054 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 22:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin39.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.39]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA12290; Mon, 31 May 1999 23:11:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <375369C4.A24C4A0D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" , "erps-list@LunaCity.com" Subject: starship-design: Historical space craft Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:04:04 -0600 Space craft designs that never quite left the drawing board. http://www.webcreations.com/ptm/index.htm From VM Wed Jun 2 10:06:08 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["513" "Wednesday" "2" "June" "1999" "00:38:45" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "13" "Re: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 513 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA28766 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28757 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (302) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id zORVa02108 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4d5576f2.24860f55@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:38:45 EDT >==Once we understand these factors, we may be closer > to knowing what it takes to travel faster than light. Who > knows? It might turn out to be simpler than what we > currently think. But I don't think we will be able to > do it for at least a few hundred years. > > Kyle R. Mcallister Don't bet on that. Now-a-days things go from weird physics concepts, to marketed products REAL fast! NASA's funding research into this stuff. They obviousl expect something far less long term then centuries. Kelly From VM Wed Jun 2 10:06:08 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["355" "Tuesday" "1" "June" "1999" "22:43:09" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "9" "Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 355 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01159 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01096 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin45.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.45]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA00668 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:50:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3754B65D.C37F3F8D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4d5576f2.24860f55@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 22:43:09 -0600 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > Don't bet on that. Now-a-days things go from weird physics concepts, to > marketed products REAL fast! NASA's funding research into this stuff. They > obviousl expect something far less long term then centuries. > > Research is ok, but NASA seems to have it's nose in too many places right now. ( personal comment only ). From VM Wed Jun 2 10:06:08 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1364" "Wednesday" "2" "June" "1999" "10:06:01" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "32" "Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1364 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02428 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02414 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-62.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.62]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27622 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37556479.5D2F8EDB@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4d5576f2.24860f55@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:06:01 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > >==Once we understand these factors, we may be closer > > to knowing what it takes to travel faster than light. Who > > knows? It might turn out to be simpler than what we > > currently think. But I don't think we will be able to > > do it for at least a few hundred years. > > > > Kyle R. Mcallister > > Don't bet on that. Now-a-days things go from weird physics concepts, to > marketed products REAL fast! NASA's funding research into this stuff. They > obviousl expect something far less long term then centuries. Well, to do that we will likely need to know about the following: 1. Inertia control. Such as preventing it from skyrocketing when C is approached. It has been suggested that relativistic 'mass' increase might be circumvented if we knew how to 'mess' with the cause of inertia. Note: many top physicists are beginning to doubt Mach's inertia theory. It would also be nice to accelerate at 1000g's and not be turned into chunky salsa. 2. Space-time modification. Pretty obvious. 3. Learning more about light speed and what it is based on. Or: how can we exceed C and live to tell about it? Like I said, when we know the fundamentals, FTL might not require warps as complex as Alcubierre's. Something simpler might exist. Less than a century to do this? It would be nice, but I don't know... Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Jun 2 10:06:08 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1940" "Wednesday" "2" "June" "1999" "10:07:02" "-0700" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "37" "starship-design: Re: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1940 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02615 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02605 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (pm5-62.gpt.infi.net [207.0.195.62]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25357 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <375564B6.77F139DC@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:07:02 -0700 bfranchuk wrote: > > KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > Don't bet on that. Now-a-days things go from weird physics concepts, to > > marketed products REAL fast! NASA's funding research into this stuff. They > > obviousl expect something far less long term then centuries. > > > > > Research is ok, but NASA seems to have it's nose in too many places > right now. ( personal comment only ). Agreed. Such as wasting money on worthless studies. Billions spent to determine the 'feasability' of the ISS, or whatever they've changed the name to. Many scientists criticised the studies as unecessary, since we already knew it (the ISS) could be built. Also, the research they do is not exactly the best. For one thing, they admit they have confirmed a slight gravitational modification from E. Podkletnov's spinning superconductor system. However, they will not give out information on how to replicate it, saying only that it is a sensitive project and would not be wise to hand out detailed information. This is not science! Like Steve told me when I was carrying on about my FTL signalling research, don't brag until you are willing to disclose replication information. When I get more accomplished I will give out info on how to replicate. Until then, I will lay low. NASA seems to think they are above this somehow. Also note that they could have completed this research much faster if they had hired either Podkletnov or Schnurer to show them how to do it right. They're 'research' into Hooper's claimed electromagnetic/gravity coupling was not carried out well either. They claim negative results, when they used a setup fundamentally different from the one Hooper used, and a power level less than half of what Hooper used. While I don't think Hooper found anything revolutionary, but NASA's replication was lousy. Now we also have to worry about whether NASA's already limited funding will be sliced. Just my $.02 Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Wed Jun 2 10:06:08 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1715" "Wednesday" "2" "June" "1999" "10:04:48" "-0600" "bfranchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "40" "Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1715 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26476 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26448 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk@dialin47.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.47]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11668 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:12:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37555620.61192307@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4d5576f2.24860f55@aol.com> <37556479.5D2F8EDB@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfranchuk From: bfranchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:04:48 -0600 "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > > KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > >==Once we understand these factors, we may be closer > > > to knowing what it takes to travel faster than light. Who > > > knows? It might turn out to be simpler than what we > > > currently think. But I don't think we will be able to > > > do it for at least a few hundred years. > > > > > > Kyle R. Mcallister > > > > Don't bet on that. Now-a-days things go from weird physics concepts, to > > marketed products REAL fast! NASA's funding research into this stuff. They > > obviousl expect something far less long term then centuries. > > Well, to do that we will likely need to know about the following: > > 1. Inertia control. Such as preventing it from skyrocketing when C is > approached. It has been suggested that relativistic 'mass' increase > might be circumvented if we knew how to 'mess' with the cause of > inertia. Note: many top physicists are beginning to doubt Mach's inertia > theory. It would also be nice to accelerate at 1000g's and not be turned > into chunky salsa. > > 2. Space-time modification. Pretty obvious. > > 3. Learning more about light speed and what it is based on. Or: how can > we exceed C and live to tell about it? Like I said, when we know the > fundamentals, FTL might not require warps as complex as Alcubierre's. > Something simpler might exist. > > Less than a century to do this? It would be nice, but I don't know... > Kyle R. Mcallister As a believer in autodynamics but while not knowing a great deal of math would not many of the ideas based on Special reltivity and ways to get around light speed now be outdated because what was thought to be loop holes in SR but really SR was wrong? Ben. From VM Thu Jun 3 09:53:55 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1890" "Thursday" "3" "June" "1999" "00:19:36" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "47" "Re: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How?" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1890 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05788 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05775 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (300) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id zLJKa02746 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <16ff0fa.24875c58@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: starship design: Alcubierre Drive... How? Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:19:36 EDT > > >==Once we understand these factors, we may be closer > > > to knowing what it takes to travel faster than light. Who > > > knows? It might turn out to be simpler than what we > > > currently think. But I don't think we will be able to > > > do it for at least a few hundred years. > > > > >> Kyle R. Mcallister > > > > Don't bet on that. Now-a-days things go from weird physics concepts, to > > marketed products REAL fast! NASA's funding research into this stuff. They > > obviousl expect something far less long term then centuries. > > Well, to do that we will likely need to know about the following: > > 1. Inertia control. Such as preventing it from skyrocketing > when C is approached. It has been suggested that > relativistic 'mass' increase might be circumvented if we > knew how to 'mess' with the cause of inertia. Note: many > top physicists are beginning to doubt Mach's inertia > theory. It would also be nice to accelerate at 1000g's and > not be turned into chunky salsa. > > 2. Space-time modification. Pretty obvious. > > 3. Learning more about light speed and what it is based > on. Or: how can we exceed C and live to tell about it? > Like I said, when we know the fundamentals, FTL might > not require warps as complex as Alcubierre's. > Something simpler might exist. > > Less than a century to do this? It would be nice, but I > don't know... > Kyle R. Mcallister All the things in your list are being researched. In the last hundred years we've learned about mass/energy conversions, fission, fusion, quantum mechanics, relativity, distortions of space and time, etc. None of that would heve seemed reasonable in the late 1800's. But of course progress is far more rapid now than then. All this work, and far more, will be developed or proved impossible in a couple decades. In ceturies we'll be WAY beyond these questions. Kelly From VM Thu Jun 3 09:53:55 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2266" "Thursday" "3" "June" "1999" "00:19:28" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "70" "Fwd: RE: starship-design: Almost Space craft" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2266 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05748 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05740 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com (300) by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id zEYIa02632 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <96998694.24875c50@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_96998694.24875c50_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Fwd: RE: starship-design: Almost Space craft Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:19:28 EDT --part1_96998694.24875c50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_96998694.24875c50_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v59.24) with SMTP; Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:08:56 -0400 Received: from bastion2-ext.mail.sprint.com (bastion2.mail.sprint.com [208.4.28.130]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA03045 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [160.41.28.141] by bastion2.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP for KellySt@aol.com; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:08:54 -0500 Received: from [144.223.128.84] by sii01.mail.sprint.com with ESMTP; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:08:47 -0500 Received: from kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (root@kcopmp02 [144.223.26.114]) by kcopmh01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA17547; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:08:46 -0500 (CDT) From: kelly g starks Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by kcopmp02.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA13689; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:08:46 -0500 (CDT) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:08:42 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: RE: starship-design: Almost Space craft TO: erps-list@LunaCity.com, KellySt@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-025ff2d5-00000001" --openmail-part-025ff2d5-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very cool. Good imaging too! Kelly -----Original Message----- From: KellySt [SMTP:KellySt@aol.com] Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 11:06 PM To: starship-design; erps-list Cc: bfranchuk Subject: starship-design: Almost Space craft =20 =20 3D renerings of space craft that never left the drawing board from the 50's to the 70's =20 http://www.deepcold.com/intro_main.html =20 =20 --openmail-part-025ff2d5-00000001-- --part1_96998694.24875c50_boundary-- From VM Thu Jun 3 16:22:24 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["46246" "Thursday" "3" "June" "1999" "18:15:49" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "977" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 June 1" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 46246 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10832 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10818 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09983 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p218.gnt.com [204.49.89.218]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA18691 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:17:05 -0500 Message-ID: <001d01beae17$049188c0$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 June 1 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:15:49 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: owner-spaceviews@wayback.com [mailto:owner-spaceviews@wayback.com] On Behalf Of jeff@spaceviews.com Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 3:03 PM Subject: SpaceViews -- 1999 June 1 [ SpaceViews (tm) newsletter ] [ see end of message for our NEW address to subscribe / unsubscribe ] S P A C E V I E W S Issue 1999.06.01 1999 June 1 http://www.spaceviews.com/1999/06/ *** News *** Shuttle Mission Proceeds Smoothly Mir Likely to Remain in Orbit until 2000 Asteroid Poses Greater Future Threat Hubble Measures Expansion and Age of Universe Chandra Launch Preparations Resume Lunar Prospector Mission Might End in Ban New 3-D Map Reveals Martian Geography Amateur Rocket Sets Record, Falls Short of Space SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News *** Articles *** The First Reusable Spaceship *** Letters *** More on RLVs and Financing *** News *** Shuttle Mission Proceeds Smoothly Despite a nearly six-month gap since the previous shuttle mission, flight STS-96 has gone smoothly from a trouble-free countdown and launch to its mission to service the International Space Station. The shuttle Discovery lifted off on schedule at 6:49 am EDT (1049 UT) Thursday, May 27, after a nearly trouble-free countdown. The launch was the first for the shuttle program since the STS-88 mission in early December of last year. The shuttle successfully docked with the station at 12:24 am EDT (0424 UT) Saturday, May 29. The shuttle is scheduled to remain docked with the station until Thursday, June 3. The first task after docking was a spacewalk to install equipment to the exterior of the station. Astronauts Tamara Jernigan and Daniel Barry spent nearly eight hours outside the shuttle on the night of May 29-30, installing the American-built Orbital Transfer Device to one side of the Unity module and pieces of the Russian Strela ("Arrow") crane to another side of the module. The cranes will be used during future assembly spacewalks to more efficiently move spacewalkers and cargo around the exterior of the module. The spacewalkers also attached three tool and equipment bags to the exterior of the station that will be used on future assembly spacewalks, and conducted an inspection of the station. The seven-person crew has since turned their attention to the interior of the station, including hauling nearly two tons of equipment -- ranging from food and clothes to computers -- into the station. The shuttle crew will also deal with repairs and workaround on the new station. Astronauts will repair a balky American communications system and investigate why some Russian batteries on the station are having problems charging. While working in the Russian-built Zarya control module, the crew will wear earplugs because noise levels there reach 72 decibels, equivalent to a busy highway and higher than NASA standards. Mufflers to be installed by the astronauts should decrease noise levels there somewhat. After Discovery undocks from ISS, the crew will release a small satellite that will be used in educational programs. The STARSHINE satellite will be visually tracked by students on the ground. Even through the satellite is only slightly larger than a basketball, the 900 mirrors on its surface will allow it to reflect sunlight and be easily seen on the ground. Commanding STS-96 is Kent Rominger, making his fourth shuttle flight, while rookie astronaut Rick Husband is the pilot. Mission specialists include Ellen Ochoa, Canadian astronaut Julie Payette, and Russian cosmonaut Valery Tokarev, in addition to Jernigan and Barry. Payette and Tokarev are making their first space flights, while Jernigan is making her fifth. If all goes well, the shuttle is scheduled to land at the Kennedy Space Center at 1:59 am EDT (0559 UT) Sunday, June 6. Mir Likely to Remain in Orbit until 2000 Even if no private investors can be found, Russia's Mir space station is likely to remain in orbit until at least early 2000, Russian officials said this week. However, one controversial source of private funding, British businessman Peter Llewellyn, will not be paying or raising money to fly on the station, although the reasons for his leaving cosmonaut training are unclear. Speaking in Florida prior to the launch of the shuttle Discovery, Boris Ostroumov, deputy director-general of the Russian Space Agency, said Mir will remain in orbit until at least February 2000, even if no funding is found to keep the station operating beyond August. "We've got more than 10 tons of scientific hardware on board the Mir station," Ostroumov said. "It simply does not make too much sense to get rid of such a treasure." He said that Mir's orbit is currently high enough to allow it to remain in orbit until at least February 2000, even if no funding is found to keep the station operating. If funding is not found the station would stay in orbit but be unoccupied, he said. Last week Russia President Boris Yeltsin signed a decree allowing Mir to remain in orbit of Energia, the company that operates Mir for the Russia Space Agency, can find the funding to keep operating the station. The decree appears similar to one signed in January by now-former Prime Minister Yevegny Primakov. A "final" decision on the fate of Mir should come as soon as early June, Russia Space Agency officials said late in the week, based on the likelihood of private funding. One source of private funding, though, has apparently backed out of plans to fly on Mir in August. Russian sources reported this week that British businessman Peter Llewellyn left Russia this week after arriving earlier in the month to begin cosmonaut training for a August flight to Mir. The reasons why Llewellyn, who was reportedly going to pay or raise $100 million to fly on the station, left cosmonaut training are uncertain. The Itar-Tass news agency reported May 26 quoted the deputy head of the cosmonaut training center, who said Llewellyn "turned out to be an unreliable partner." The next day, however, Russian Space Agency officials said Llewellyn was dropped from training because, at 188 cm (6 feet 2 inches) in height, he was too tall to fit safely in the Soyuz spacecraft. While it is true that there is a maximum height of about 183 cm (6 feet) for Soyuz passengers, it is not clear why this became a factor after training began. Doubts about Llewellyn's ability to pay for the flight had been met with skepticism, particularly by Western observers. While working in the U.S., Llewellyn faced fraud charges in a Pittsburgh court until he agreed to repay approximately $40,000 to a former business partner. Local police there had considered him something of a con artist. A lack of private investment raises new concerns about the fate of Mir. While Russian officials say the station can be left unstaffed, others, such as Viktor Blagov, deputy head of Mir mission control, have claimed that the station must be kept occupied at all times, or else the attitude control computers, which require frequent maintenance, will fail. A failure of the attitude control systems on Mir could cause it to start tumbling uncontrollably, which would make a controlled deorbit of the station into the Earth's atmosphere impossible. Asteroid Poses Greater Future Threat A near-Earth asteroid which earlier this year was found to have a one-in-a-billion chance of striking the Earth in 2039 may have a larger -- but still very small -- chance of a collision five years later, JPL astronomers said. In an interview with MSNBC, Don Yeomans, head of NASA's Near-Earth Object Program Office at JPL, said that asteroid 1999 AN10 has a 1-in-500,000 chance of hitting the Earth in 2044. That probability is still less than that for a unknown asteroid. Astronomers estimate a 1-in-100,000 chance that an undiscovered asteroid one kilometer or larger in diameter will strike the Earth in a given year. However, that very small probability has raised interest among astronomers. "I'm not worried in the least about this object, but I'm not going to ignore it," Gareth Williams of the Minor Planets Center told MSNBC. Yeomans said the asteroid's impact probability is at a threshold above which it might warrant special attention. The revised orbit for 1999 AN10 came after new observations of the asteroid by an amateur astronomer in Australia. Those observations were likely triggered by debate in April when a preprint of a scientific paper, publicized on a mailing list used by near-Earth asteroid researchers, showed that the asteroid had a one-in-a-billion chance of colliding with the Earth in 2039. The revised calculations based on the new data also increased the probability of a 2039 impact to ten million to one, 100 times higher than previously but still far smaller than the odds of an impact from an unknown object. The asteroid will also make a close flyby of Earth in 2027, coming as close as 32,600 km (20,200 mi.) of the surface of the Earth on August 7. The chance of an impact on that date is essentially zero, but the close passage the asteroid, within the Earth's magnetic field, might levitate dust off the surface of the asteroid through electrostatic repulsion and create a dim "dust coma." Astronomers earlier noted that the asteroid's orbit will bring it close to Earth many times in the coming centuries. Further observations of the asteroid are planned in coming weeks that should refine its orbit and better determine any impact probabilities in future close approaches. Hubble Measures Expansion and Age of Universe Astronomers, marking the completion of one of the Hubble Space Telescope's major projects, have made the most precise measurement yet of a key cosmological factor that governs the age of the universe and its rate of expansion, NASA announced May 25. A team of astronomers, having completed an eight-year study of distant galaxies with Hubble, found that the Hubble constant, a measure of the rate of expansion of the universe, is approximately 70 km/sec per megaparsec (Mpc, equal to 3.25 million light-years), corresponding to an age of 12 billion years. With an error of only 10 percent, the result is the most precise measurement made to date of the Hubble constant (often referred to as "H0" or "H-nought"), one of the key values in astronomy. The factor, named after American astronomer Edwin Hubble, had also been hotly debated by astronomers, with the field at one time divided into two camps: one who believed H0 was 100 km/sec/Mpc, while others believed H0 to be just 50. H0 is important because it also provides a measure of the age of the universe: simply inverting the result and adjusting the units gives a rough estimate of the age of the universe. The age is then adjusted by accounting for the density of the universe and other effects. "Before Hubble, astronomers could not decide if the universe was 10 billion or 20 billion years old," said Wendy Freedman of the Observatories of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, who led the HST Key Project Team. "The size scale of the universe had a range so vast that it didn't allow astronomers to confront with any certainty many of the most basic questions about the origin and eventual fate of the cosmos." The new value from Hubble greatly improves our knowledge of the universe, say astronomers. "We used to disagree by a factor of two; now we are just as passionate about ten percent," said Robert Kirschner of Harvard University. "A factor of two is like being unsure if you have one foot or two. Ten percent is like arguing about one toe." The Hubble results are in accordance with research by other astronomers, who have found values of H0 ranging from the mid-sixties into the low seventies in recent years, using different techniques. "It's exciting to see the different methods of measuring galaxy distances converge, calibrated by the Hubble Space Telescope," noted team member Jeremy Mould of the Australian National University. The Hubble team measured the variation in brightness of Cepheid variables, a class of variable stars with a well-known relationship between the period of variation and its absolute brightness. By measuring the period and apparent brightness of Cepheids in distant galaxies with Hubble, astronomers are able to estimate the distance to these galaxies. This distance, combined with information about the redshift of the galaxies caused by the Doppler effect, allows astronomers to compute the Hubble constant and hence the rate of expansion. Combining the new value of H0 with current estimates for the density of the universe, Freedman and colleagues found the age of the universe to be about 12 billion years. This is in accordance with estimates for the age of the oldest stars of the universe, ending past concerns where some globular star clusters appeared to be older than the universe itself. Not everyone is in agreement with the new value for H0. Allan Sandage, a colleague of Freedman's at Carnegie, is still a proponent for a value of H0 in the range of 50 to 60. "If NASA is giving the impression that the problem is solved, then we would dispute that," Sandage said in a telephone interview with the Associated Press. "They have announced a final number, and they are not correct." More discussion about the new value of H0 is expected at the next meeting of the American Astronomical Society, scheduled to take place in Chicago in early June. Chandra Launch Preparations Resume NASA has resumed preparations for the launch of the Chandra X-Ray Observatory after resolving issues with the upper stage that will be used to boost the satellite, the space agency reported Friday, May 28. The resumed preparations will permit the launch of the shuttle Columbia, which will place Chandra and its upper stage into orbit, no sooner than July 22. Project officials at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center said the Inertial Upper Stage (IUS) that will be used to boost Chandra will be delivered to NASA on Tuesday, June 1, permitting launch preparations to resume. The upper stage will be mated to the spacecraft and, after mechanical and electrical tests, the whole assembly will be placed in the shuttle's cargo bay. The delivery of the IUS and its integration with Chandra was scheduled to take place a month earlier, but was delayed when another IUS failed to place an Air Force early-warning satellite into its proper orbit after an April 9 Titan 4B launch. NASA said in a press release that the space agency "has taken all appropriate actions to mitigate any issues raised regarding the Inertial Upper Stage." Plans now call for the launch of STS-93, previously planned for early July, to take place no sooner than July 22. Columbia will deploy the satellite on a four-day mission commanded by Eileen Collins, the first woman to command a shuttle mission. Lunar Prospector Mission Might End in Bang Lunar Prospector project managers are considering ending the spacecraft's mission later this year by deliberately crashing the spacecraft into a region of the Moon thought to harbor water ice, Space News reported in its May 24 issue. The crash would through up a cloud of debris which would include any water ice in the region of impact, allowing for a direct detection of ice from telescopes on the Earth. Lunar Prospector is the second half of an extended mission which is expected to conclude this summer when the spacecraft runs out of maneuvering propellant. The Moon's irregular gravity field would then cause Prospector to crash to the surface. However, project officials are considering deliberately crashing Prospector in the crater Mawson in the Moon's south polar region. That crater has a 33-km (20.5-mi.) floor thought to be rich in water ice. The impact would throw up a plume of material that could be observed from minutes to hours after impact from telescopes on Earth. Those telescopes could spectroscopically detect the presence of any water ice in the debris. Prospector has already amassed considerable evidence for water ice on the Moon from its neutron spectrometer, which has detected high concentrations of hydrogen in permanently-shadowed regions of the lunar poles. Water is the most likely source of the hydrogen detected by Prospector, scientists believe. A final decision for targeting Lunar Prospector will come from NASA administrator Dan Goldin, project officials said. If given the go-ahead, the impact procedure would begin July 29 or 30. Because the limited amount of debris a Prospector impact would be able to throw up, scientists note that the odds of actually being able to observe any water ice in the plume would be slim. "Lunar Prospector is going to crash somewhere" anyway, noted Mike Duke of the Lunar and Planetary Institute. "So if you aim it at a place that you think is in shadow, there are instruments and people that stand a chance of actually seeing something." New 3-D Map Reveals Martian Geography A new three-dimensional map of the surface of Mars, released by NASA Thursday, May 27, has provided new insights on the geology of the Red Planet. The map, generated from data collected by a laser altimeter on the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft, allows scientists to know the topography of the Red Planet to a greater detail than some regions on Earth, NASA officials said. The topographic map shows a striking difference between the planet's northern and southern hemisphere, with the southern hemisphere an average of five kilometers (three miles) higher than the northern. The southern hemisphere is also more rugged and crater-pocked than the smoother northern hemisphere. The depressed northern hemisphere is likely a result of internal geologic processes on Mars early in its history, and not the result of an impact, according to David Smith of the Goddard Space Flight Center, lead author of a paper on Martian topography published in the May 28 issue of the journal Science. The high elevations in the southern hemisphere may have been partially caused by an impact that created the Hellas basin, the scientists said. The impact threw up enough material to cover an area the size of the continental United States to a depth of 3.2 kilometers (2 miles). Overall, the difference in planetary elevations, from the top of Olympus Mons to the bottom of the deepest basins, is 30 kilometers (19 miles), one and a half times the difference between the highest and lowest elevations on the Earth. The new map has also provided new insights about the drainage of water on the early Mars. Portions of the eastern end of the giant Valles Marineris canyon is actually up to one kilometer (0.6 miles) below the level of neighboring outflow channels, suggested that water may have collected there. Information about the poles collected from the topographic data show that if the residual polar caps on Mars are composed entirely of water ice, there is enough water on the planet to cover the surface to a depth of 22 to 33 meters (66 to 100 feet). This is estimated to be about one-third of the minimum amount of water to account for a proposed ancient ocean, suggesting that Mars either lost the rest of the water to space or it is stored deep underground. "This incredible database means that we now know the topography of Mars better than many continental regions on Earth," claimed Carl Pilcher, science director of NASA's solar system exploration program. "The data will serve as a basic reference book for Mars scientists for many years." The laser altimeter will continue to collect data as Mars Global Surveyor continues its mapping mission, including data on the topography of the planned landing site of the Mars Polar Lander spacecraft, scheduled to land in early December. Amateur Rocket Sets Record, Falls Short of Space An amateur rocket launched Sunday, May 23, set an unofficial altitude record but weather conditions prevented the amateur group's bid to be the first to launch a rocket into space. The balloon-launched rocket reached a maximum altitude of at least 21,885 meters (72,223 feet) according to JP Aerospace, the California-based amateur group that built and launched the rocket. The rocket likely traveled to a higher altitude, John Powell, president of JP Aerospace, said. The maximum altitude reported by the group was the highest they measured from the rocket's onboard GPS receiver. At that time the rocket was still traveling upwards at 240 meters per second (800 feet per second). Powell said the group has calculated the estimated maximum altitude the rocket has reached, but has chosen only to report the lower, but verified, altitude from the GPS measurement. The group had hoped that the rocket would exceed an altitude of 97 km (60 mi.) and become the first amateur vehicle to fly into space. However, after delaying the launch one day because of winds, the group concluded that the upper-level winds above the Black Rock Desert, Nevada, launch site would blow the balloon and rocket out of operational range before they reached their planned launch height of 30,300 meters (100,000 feet). Instead of scrubbing the launch all together, the group decided to launch the rocket from just 7,880 meters (26,000 feet). "We learn nothing from a rocket on the ground so we decided to 'cycle the system' and verify that the launch system works," Powell said. The maximum verified altitude of the rocket would set a record for an amateur rocket, breaking the record of 20,000 meters (66,000 feet) by Ky Michelson. Powell said Michelson was on hand for the launch and "unofficially handed over the title." Other launches have claimed higher altitudes, but those altitudes were calculated based on the trajectory of the rocket and other parameters, but not directly measured. Other amateur launches have also had NASA involvement, Powell noted. In May 1997 Project HALO, an effort by the Huntsville, Alabama chapter of the National Space Society, also launched a rocket from a balloon. They estimated a peak altitude of 55,200 to 66,300 meters (182,300 to 218,700 feet). However, they had no direct measurement of the altitude since they were unable to pick up transmission from the rocket's GPS receiver beyond 9,100 meters (30,000 feet). Powell said this his group's record could be questioned as well, since the launch took place from a balloon and not from the ground. "The situation [about the record] is such a mess that we're staying away from it like the plague," he said. "We flew our rocket to 72,223 feet as part of our spaceflight project and next time it will be even higher." SpaceViews Event Horizon June 6 Shuttle Discovery landing at the Kennedy Space Center, at 1:59 am EDT (0559 UT). June 7 Long March 2C/SD launch of two Iridium satellites from Taiyuan, China June 8 Delta 2 launch of four Globalstar satellites from Cape Canaveral, Florida at 10:22 am EDT (1422 UT) June 11 (NET) Atlas 2A launch of the GOES-L weather satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida (under review) June 12 Proton launch of Russian Raduga comsat (and initial flight of the Breeze-M upper stage) from Baikonur, Kazakhstan. June 23-24 First U.S. Space Tourism Conference, Washington, DC July 15-16 Lunar Base Development Symposium, League City, TX Other News SETI@home Overload: SETI@home, the project that allows users to analyze data from a University of California Berkeley search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) project, may be a victim of its own success. Over 300,000 users have downloaded the software and started analyzing the data, some on multiple computers. The crush of users has caused problems for the Berkeley computers that send out the data and receive the analyzed results. Project officials say a new server, to be donated by Sun Microsystems within the next month, should alleviate problems, as well as planned bug fixes to the SETI@home software. India Commercial Launch: An Indian rocket launched three satellites May 26 in what was billed as the first commercial launch for the country. A Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) launched the Indian Remote Sensing IRS-P4 satellite as well as two small experimental satellites for Germany and South Korea. The foreign satellites were launched under commercial agreements, marking the first time Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) had sold launch services. ISRO plans to sell launches on both the PSLV and the more powerful Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) under development. Beal Seeks Alternative Site: Beal Aerospace is looking at a South American alternative to its planned Caribbean launch site. Last month company officials visited the nation of Guyana, in northern South America, to check out a potential launch site in a swampy region along the country's Caribbean coast. The site could be an alternative to Sombrero Island, an uninhabited island 55 km (35 mi.) from the British colony of Anguilla. That site has run into opposition from environmentalists, who are concerned that a launch site could adversely affect sea birds who use the island as a breeding ground. Leonids No Big Worry: The heavy storm of Leonid meteors expected in November 1999 should not be a major concern for satellite operators, experts said at a conference last month. While the peak of the storm is forecast to be up to four times the rate of the 1998 storm, it will still be far below the extremely heavy rates seen in the last Leonids storm in 1966. The 33-year cycle of heavy Leonids storms had caused concern that satellites could be damaged by the flux of small meteors, but no satellites were damaged in the 1998 storm. Cosmic Call: For the first time since 1974, humans have sent a deliberate signal into interstellar space with a May 24 transmission from a Ukrainian radio observatory. The message, sponsored by Houston-based company Encounter 2001, consisted of one part designed by a team of scientists and a second part that included 30-word messages from members of the general public, who paid $14.95 each for the privilege. The message was beamed to four Sun-like stars 51 to 71 light-years away in the Summer Triangle. Briefly: China may be accelerating plans to put a human into space. A Chinese newspaper article last week, reported by Reuters, claimed that a manned launch may occur before the 50th anniversary of the People's Republic on October 1. Previously, Chinese officials had reported plans to launch the spacecraft, based on the Russian Soyuz, on an unmanned test flight in October... Russian mission control director Vladimir Lobachev, in Florida for the STS-96 launch, was arrested on assault charges May 23 when he attacked two paramedics who were transporting him to a hospital after discovering the Russian semiconscious near a Cocoa Beach, Florida, pier. Lobachev was later released on a $1,000 bond and left the country immediately thereafter. When taken to the hospital authorities found that his blood alcohol level was more than three times the state limit for being declared legally drunk... AT&T, which has engaged in a $100 billion spree of mergers and acquisitions, may have its sights on something even larger: NASA. A joke passing through AT&T's email network and reported in the May 31 issue of Business Week claimed that the company was going to purchase the space agency in excess of $100 billion. AT&T would then string coax cable from "Cape Canaveral to Mars" before rolling out a "10-planet trial of communications services." However, the joke continues, a lack of identified extraterrestrial intelligences could limit the market for the company's services, but if any would be found, the company would win them over with free subscriptions to the Showtime premium movie channel... *** Articles *** The First Reusable Spaceship by Andrew J. LePage Ask the typical space enthusiast to name the first reusable piloted spaceship and the most likely answer would be the Space Shuttle. While the Space Shuttle's external tank is discarded on each mission, its pair of solid rocket boosters as well as the highly complex and expensive orbiter (the actual "spaceship") are certainly reusable. But the Space Shuttle was not the first piloted spacecraft that could be flown over and over. Nor was some little known piece of Soviet engineering genius. The honor belongs to the grandfather of all modern aerospace planes, the X-15. While the X-15 is certainly the most famous of all the X-series aircraft, the fact that it flew into space on no less than 13 occasions while the Mercury and Gemini programs came and went is frequently overlooked. Even in NASA's "official" count of American manned space missions, the suborbital X-15 flights are notably absent. This despite the fact that three NASA pilots (not to mention five USAF pilots) earned their astronaut wings during the program including Joe Engle who went on to fly NASA's Space Shuttle in the 1980s. There are several possible reasons the X-15 spaceflight accomplishments are often forgotten: First the majority of the X-15's 199 flights were never meant to fly high enough to qualify as an "official" spaceflight. Extremely high altitude flights were only one of this long running program's many objectives. Combined with the almost routine nature of what was really a test program, X-15 flights did not generate the media coverage afforded to the far less "routine" space missions of the Mercury and Gemini programs. Finally, when the X-15 passed the threshold into space, it barely did so and only briefly - hardly newsworthy to some when men are spending days or weeks in orbit in preparation for a manned lunar mission. But exactly where is this threshold where one "officially" passes into space? The Edge of Space There really is not a clearly defined altitude where one passes out of the sensible atmosphere and into the vacuum of space. In the late 1950's the USAF decided to award astronaut wings to pilots who flew over 50 statute miles (80.45 kilometers) above sea level. Besides being a nice round number (at least in English measurement units), 50 miles is higher than any balloon or conventional aircraft has ever flown (about 30 miles or 50 kilometers) yet lower than the lowest perigee of a marginally stable satellite orbit (about 55 miles or 90 kilometers). Eventually flying as high as about 108 kilometers (67 miles), the X-15 was the first craft capable of flying in the transition region between the sensible atmosphere and space. The need to explore this region as well as the effects of hypersonic flight (i.e. at speeds exceeding five times the speed of sound or Mach 5), had been recognized in the early 1950s. In the years after the last World War, rocket-powered aircraft such as the USAF's X-1 series and the X-2 as well as the US Navy sponsored D-558 series of test aircraft first broke the sound barrier and proceeded to set a string of speed records up to Mach 3. In addition, these aircraft also flew at increasingly greater altitudes eventually reaching as high as 38 kilometers (24 miles) above sea level. But military planners anticipated the need for future aircraft to fly faster and higher still. In addition, since the prevailing view of manned spaceflight at the time called for a pilot to fly his rocket powered aircraft into orbit and back, there was an obvious need to explore the issues associated with high altitude hypersonic flight. After a meeting held by the Executive Committee of NACA (NASA's pre-Space Age predecessor, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics) it was recommended that NACA start research into the problems of flight at speeds of Mach 4 to 10 and at altitudes from 12 to 50 miles (19 to 80 kilometers). What would become the X-15 was designed to meet this goal. A further resolution on July 14 extended NACA goals to speeds from Mach 10 to escape velocity and altitudes from 50 miles (80 kilometers) to infinity. Meeting this latter goal lead to the USAF X-20 "Dyna Soar" and NASA's Mercury program (see "The Beginnings of America's Man in Space Program" in the October 1998 issue of SpaceViews). During the coming months NACA engineers performed numerous studies on hypersonic aircraft designs and soon the USAF took an interest. They had been performing similar studies and, along with NACA officials, knew that such a research program would be best carried out by pooling the resources of several agencies. By July 9, 1954 a joint NACA/USAF/US Navy committee started meeting to discuss the need for such a vehicle and its basic design. By late 1954 the base design criteria were determined and on January 17, 1955 the USAF officially assigned the new aircraft the "X-15" designation. The Design Four aircraft manufacturers responded to the joint NACA/USAF/US Navy call for proposals. Bell (the builder of the X-1 series) submitted its D-171 design, Douglas its Model 684 D-558-3, and Republic its Model AP-76. While every agency involved had its favorite design, ultimately they agreed on the North American NA-240 proposal and a contract for three aircraft was signed on September 30, 1955. This design was chosen because of its simplicity and ease to modify to meet the agencies' various specifications. The final design that emerged from this long process became an aerospace classic. The X-15 was designed to attain speeds of Mach 6 and altitudes in excess of 250,000 feet (76 kilometers). It was 15.2 meters (50 feet) long and weighed 15,100 kilograms (33,300 pounds) at launch. Midway down its fuselage were a pair of low aspect ratio, trapezoidal shaped wings with a span of 6.7 meters (22 feet). Based on NACA research, the X-15 used a pair of thick, wedge shaped vertical stabilizers and thin, down sloping horizontal stabilizers to provide directional control during flight. These also gave the aircraft its classic arrow-like profile. A set of a dozen small hydrogen peroxide-fueled jets located in the nose and wingtips with thrusts of 180 and 450 Newtons(40 and 100 pounds) provided attitude control when the X-15 was too high and the air too rarefied for its aerodynamic control surfaces to work. A similar system was later used by NASA's Mercury space capsule. The bulk of the X-15 airframe was made from titanium while most of the outer skin was composed of the heat resistant and then exotic nickel-based alloy, Iconel X. Such materials were needed to withstand the anticipated 650 C (1,200 F) temperatures generated during hypersonic flight. The air conditioned, climate controlled cockpit provided enough room for a single pressure suit clad pilot. It was equipped with an advanced ejection seat that would work safely at speeds up to Mach 4 and an altitude 36.6 kilometers (120,000 feet or 22.7 miles). It provided an extra safety margin for what was recognized as a risky test program. Most of the X-15 fuselage housed a set of tanks holding 8,540 kilograms (18,800 pounds) of propellant for the X-15's single rocket engine. Ultimately the XLR-99 engine built by Reaction Motors, Inc. (which later became a division of Thiokol) was chosen based on a bid the company submitted in December of 1955. This engine produced 223 kilonewtons (50,000 pounds) of thrust at sea level and was intended to be restartable and throttlable in flight. Initially the engine was to be throttled from 30% to 100% of its maximum thrust. Early versions of the engine would only throttle between 50% and 100% but even later versions were limited to a minimum 40% rating to avoid running problems found during test flights at low thrust settings. The turbopump fed XLR-99 ran on an unusual combination of liquid anhydrous ammonia and liquid oxygen (LOX). While there are certainly rocket fuels more powerful than liquid ammonia available, Reaction Motors did have much experience with this propellant combination and knew that engines burning it were very forgiving during restarts - a very important safety factor. This powerful engine would easily allow the X-15 to exceed its speed and altitude design goals. Ultimately the performance of the X-15 would be limited by the heat generated during high speed flight or reentry and not by its engine. But as development of the X-15 and its XLR-99 engine proceeded it became increasingly clear that the first X-15 airframes would be available long before their innovative powerplants. By February 1958 it was decided that the first two X-15 aircraft would initially be equipped with a pair of less powerful XLR-11 engines similar to the ones that powered the Bell X-1 series and the Douglas D-558-II aircraft. Each XLR-11 engine consisted of four thrust chambers that could be fired independently allowing for an eight-step throttle capability. With all eight chambers running, the pair of alcohol/LOX fueled XLR-11 rocket engines produced a total of 71 kilonewtons (16,000 pounds) of thrust. While this was only a third of the maximum thrust generated by the XLR-99, it did allow the X-15 test program to proceed with the previously planned low speed trials that would be flown initially. But even with the powerful XLR-99, the X-15 would waste far too much propellant taking off directly from the ground. Like many other rocket powered test aircraft, the X-15 would be carried by a large carrier aircraft to altitude before being dropped for the beginning of a test flight. But the B-29 and its sibling, the B-50, bombers used by earlier X-series aircraft were too small to handle the much larger X-15. After much debate a modified B-52 bomber, which was just entering service, was selected to be the X-15 mother craft. The X-15 would be mounted under the B-52's starboard wing on a special pylon that provided a variety of support functions before the X-15 was launched. B-52A serial number 52-003 and B-52B serial number 52-008 were sent to North American for their transformation into the NB-52A and NB-52B carrier aircraft. First Flights By the time the first X-15 was rolled out on October 15, 1958 the Space Age was already a year old and there was a new sense of urgency in the program. The X-15 was the first craft ever built that was capable of sending a man into space and it had a good chance of not only beating the Soviet Union but NASA's just announced ballistic man-in-space initiative. Because of the advanced state of development, North American even proposed using an X-15 variant called the X-15B to be launched into orbit using Titan boosters. Since NASA was committed even at this early date to using a ballistic capsule for its first manned flights, the North American plan lost out to the proposal submitted by the McDonnell Aircraft Company (see "America's First Spaceship" in the April 15, 1999 issue of SpaceViews). In the mean time the X-15 was put through its paces in anticipation of its first powered flight. The first captive flight with the first X-15 attached to the NB-52 carrier took place on March 10, 1959. After several more captive flights, the X-15 flew its first unpowered glide flight on June 8, 1959. At the controls of this and most early flights was North American's test pilot Scott Crossfield - a former NACA pilot who had flown the X-1, D-558-I and D-558-II and had been the first man to fly faster than Mach 2 on November 20, 1953. The first XLR-11 powered flight took place using X-15 #2 on September 17, 1959 with Crossfield easily reaching a speed of Mach 2.11 and an altitude of 15.95 kilometers (9.91 miles). A near repeat was accomplished a month later but the fourth flight on November 5 was almost catastrophic. An engine fire forced an emergency landing which resulted in a structural failure with the X-15 almost breaking in two between the cockpit and propellant tank. Fortunately Crossfield was not injured. The structural design defect that lead to the failure was corrected and the aircraft was repaired. Over the coming months the X-15 performance envelope was gradually increased and new USAF, US Navy, and NASA pilots began flying this manned bullet. After 29 flights with the XLR-11 engines, the X-15 made its first XLR-99 powered flight on March 7, 1961. While the delay in the delivery of the XLR-99 powerplant meant that the X-15 would not make the first manned spaceflight, it did mark the beginning of an unprecedented test program that blazed the trail for future aerospace planes. Bibliography Ben Guenther, Jay Miller, and Terry Panopalis, North American X-15/X-15A-2, Aerofax, Inc., 1985 Robert S. Houston, Richard P. Hallion, Ronald G. Boston, "Transiting from Air to Space: The North American X-15", from The Hypersonic Revolution Case Studies in the History of Hypersonic Technology Air Force History and Museums Program, 1998 Jay Miller, The X-Planes: X-1 to X-29, Specialty Press, 1983 Milton O. Thompson, At the Edge of Space: The X-15 Flight Program, Smithsonian Institute, 1992 Author Drew LePage is a physicist and freelance writer specializing in astronomy and the history of spaceflight. He can be reached at lepage@visidyne.com. *** Letters *** More on RLVs and Financing [Editor's Note: These letters are in response to one published in the May 22 issue of SpaceViews, available at http://www.spaceviews.com/1999/05/letters2.html. Letters can be sent to letters@spaceviews.com.] While there are seeming dark clouds on the horizon for RLVs, the situation is not as bad as some would paint it. The development cost for privatized RLVs today is comparable to the cost of a single ELV failure. If the Delta III program had been run by a start-up venture rather than by the biggest aerospace company in the world, it would have gone broke by now. Kistler and Roton haven't made any money yet, but they'll never lose as much as the Delta III program already has. And there have been a lot of ELV failures of late. The venerable Delta and Titan are having their share of problems, and the vaunted Zenit doesn't make satellite customers comfortable, either. Based on actual events, it's rather unrealistic to claim that ELV technology is "proven" and "highly reliable." And if it's not proven and highly reliable by now, when will it be? The small first-generation RLVs are not necessarily excluded from the heavy-lift market as the ELV proponents assert. The Kistler K-1 and Roton can both boost fairly large payloads into LEO. From there, a teleoperated vehicle -- a space tug -- can rendezvous with the payload, join it with fuel tanks, and transfer it into GEO. My company, Astrotug (http://astrotug.com) is developing a reusable space tug for this purpose. When teleoperated space operations become commonplace, megasatellite builders will begin to think about redesigning their payloads as snap-together to-be-assembled-in-orbit modules that could be shipped up in multiple small-lift missions -- rather than a single "'all the eggs in one basket" heavy-lift mission. We don't even need this to recognize that if an RLV engine fails, the craft may yet abort safely -- but if an ELV engine fails, your $100 million payload sleeps with the fishes. In the long run -- that is, about five years from now -- small RLVs could be in competition with heavy-lift ELVs, and seen as both the less expensive and less risky alternative. The ELV, like the socialist utopia which conceived of it, is an idea whose time has gone. Joe Schembrie Robert Clements' letter in the May 22 issue of SpaceViews also forgets one additional and important point. Interest in developing RLV's will remain low while it is cheaper to buy insurance for your spacecraft launch rather than try and develop new, more reliable, launch capabilities. The failure of nearly every launcher in the US arsenal in the past few weeks is going to have a significant impact on the space insurance market and cause rates to rise. Like the oil shortages in the 1970s -- which led to the development of lean-burn engines and an increase interest in new sources of energy -- higher insurance rates may lead to a new interest in developing new launch capabilities. Over 36,000 people have involved in prepping the Space Shuttle for launch, if you can get this down to the same number that look after Concorde for example (148), significant cost savings could be made. Paul Guinnessy ======== This has been the June 1, 1999, issue of SpaceViews. SpaceViews is also available on the World Wide web from the SpaceViews home page: http://www.spaceviews.com/ or via anonymous FTP from ftp.seds.org: ftp://ftp.seds.org/pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews/text/19990601.txt To unsubscribe from SpaceViews, send mail to: majordomo@spaceviews.com In the body (not subject) of the message, type: unsubscribe spaceviews For editorial questions and article submissions for SpaceViews, including letters to the editor, contact the editor, Jeff Foust, at jeff@spaceviews.com For questions about the SpaceViews mailing list, please contact spaceviews-approval@spaceviews.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- - - To NOT receive future newsletters, send this message to our NEW address: - To: majordomo@SpaceViews.com - Subject: anything - unsubscribe SpaceViews - - E-Mail List services provided by Northern Winds: www.nw.net - - SpaceViews (tm) is published for the National Space Society (NSS), - copyright (C) Boston Chapter of National Space Society - www.spaceviews.com www.nss.org (jeff@spaceviews.com) From VM Fri Jun 4 16:44:55 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11707" "Friday" "4" "June" "1999" "18:41:53" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "240" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 83 (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 11707 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26989 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26969 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p238.gnt.com [204.49.89.238]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA23030 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:43:15 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01beaee3$d2cbbf90$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 83 (fwd) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:41:53 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu [mailto:listserv@ds.cc.utexas.edu] On Behalf Of Chris W. Johnson Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 4:15 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 83 (fwd) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:23:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Donald L Doughty To: DC-X Subject: Space Access Update #83 6/3/99 (fwd) Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Space Access Update #83 6/3/99 Copyright 1999 by Space Access Society __________________________________________________________________ Stories This Issue - Congressional Update: So Far, So Good on NASA X-Ops, DOD Spaceplane Funding - News Roundup: FAA AST Reentry NPRM Out, NASA STAS Results Out, Kistler Gets More Financing, Rotary Begins ATV Systems Tests __________________________________________________________________ Congressional Update The House NASA Authorization was amended and passed in floor action in late May; text is available at http://thomas.loc.gov as HR-1654 and Report 106-145. We got what we needed in this bill, additional money over the next few years, specifically designated for Future-X tests of low-cost operations, with language urging NASA to avoid overemphasis on bleeding-edge technology and to give consideration to the startups. This is short of the explicit small-business setaside we'd like to see, but it's not bad. Our thanks to everyone who helped make this happen, with a special tip of the hat to some who worked very hard indeed. The Senate NASA Authorization is out of committee but still has not reached the Senate floor - this version, as we mentioned last week, adds money for "future planning (space launch)" but it's not clear yet what that will turn out to be. Interesting features of the two NASA authorization versions include: - House defunding of the "Triana" solar-observatory/Earth-view satellite along partisan lines. We note that numerous activists were involved in this one and caution that taking sides in such partisan issues can be counterproductive in the long run. In this particular case, we further note that much misinformation seems to have been circulating. Complicating the issue, a story on spacer.com floated a trial balloon for the idea of trading a restoral of Triana funding for, of all things, support for Future-X X-ops funding. We think X-ops can stand on its own merits, but we'd have no objection to such a trade - we're neutral on Triana. We do suspect that regardless of whether that particular horse-trade gets made, Triana funding will end up back in the final budget, given the combination of Administration and Senate support - some sort of deal will likely be made. - Senate capping of Space Station's budget at $2.1 billion per year. Given the recently revealed overruns and the current crucial stage of the project, NASA, the White House, and much of the Congress have reached a consensus that going some half billion per year over the previously agreed $2 billion/year for the next couple years is the least bad thing to do. The Senate Commerce Committee led by Senator McCain do not agree, and inserted the cap in their version. It is unclear whether this cap would survive on the Senate floor or in conference with the House, but it's quite clear the White House won't sign a bill with such a cap. It is quite possible NASA will once again be operating without a final authorization bill next year, as it has been (apparently quite happily) for most of this decade. It might seem from the previous that our efforts to affect the NASA Authorizations bill have been a waste, if it likely will never become signed law. Not so - authorizations in general are expressions of Congressional intent, and thus can have a useful effect on both the agency involved and on the appropriators who actually decide what will be spent, even if the Authorization bill never does grind through to the end of the process. Speaking of appropriations... The House NASA Appropriation is we are told not likely to be considered until September. The Senate NASA Appropriation may be introduced in committee in June, but also will not likely hit the Senate floor until September. We may want to work the Senate appropriators soon - stand by on this one. Meanwhile, over on the defense budget side, we've had some good results in both House and Senate DOD Authorizations. The House added $5 million for Military Spaceplane to the program element where SMV (Space Maneuver Vehicle, the X-40, closely related to NASA's X-37) lives, while the Senate added $35 million to be used specifically for building a second, USAF-version copy of the X-37. __________________________________________________________________ News Roundup - FAA AST Reentry NPRM Out The FAA's Advanced Space Transportation office released a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) dealing with reentry of reusable launch vehicles at the end of April. An NPRM is one of the last stages before proposed Federal regulations become final and have the power of law - after NPRM release, there's a statutory 90-day comment period (the clock is ticking.) The regulatory agency has to record and respond to all comments then publish the results before the new regulations can go into effect - sometimes the comments result in changes to the NPRM version, sometimes not. This NPRM, in .pdf format, can be found at: http://ast.faa.gov/pdf/Nprm4_20_99.pdf We're still looking it over; so far our only criticism is that the inspection access provisions seem a bit draconian. Early word from our friends in the industry is that this NPRM looks OK. But if you have an interest in the results of this process, read the NPRM for yourself, and get your comments in to FAA AST before the clock runs out in late July. Speak now or live with the results. - NASA Space Transportation Architecture Study (STAS) Results Out Last year, NASA contracted with a number of aerospace outfits, established and startup both, to look at what to do about continuing to meet NASA's manned space transportation needs, IE to continue supporting the missions currently flown (expensively) by Shuttle. The recently published STAS results vary from the ultra-conservative (decades of incremental Shuttle upgrades and rebuilds) to recommendations for various ultra-advanced Shuttle replacements. The one we like the most involves developing a Crew Transfer Vehicle (CTV) to be launched with an in-line cargo carrier on the heavier versions of the USAF/commercial Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle, EELV, also known as Delta 4 and Atlas 5. This would be phased in gradually as a supplement to Shuttle, eventually replacing it. This would save money over the next couple decades - NASA JSC & friends *will* fly their six-to-eight missions a year, and a hundred-million-dollar EELV plus a reusable CTV would have a hard time costing more than a half-billion dollar Shuttle flight. This approach to replacing Shuttle would avoid massive up-front government expense - even NASA would have a hard time spending more than a billion or two developing a simple CTV, whereas the advanced Shuttle replacements would require several times that. This would reduce technical risk - a simple CTV has got to be easier to develop than some flavor of massive Shuttle-replacement reusable spaceplane. Most important from our point of view, this approach meets NASA JSC's needs while avoiding disruption of the commercial launch market. Privatized Shuttle upgrades or VentureStar-class Shuttle replacements both have a major problem: They would have significant capacity beyond NASA requirements that would almost certainly end up "dumped" at subsidized prices on the commercial market. Government financed vehicles creaming off the most lucrative core of the launch market is a show-stopper for potential investors in private low-cost launch - who in their right mind wants to compete with the government? An EELV-launched CTV would conclusively avoid this problem - why would commercial users pay the extra cost of the CTV when they could just buy an EELV commercially? Any subsidy that made a CTV/EELV cheaper to commercial customers than an EELV alone would be far too obvious to get away with. Reusable launch investors would then face the much more predictable environment of having to compete with commercial expendables, and reusable launch ventures could then succeed or fail on their own merits, rather than being strangled in the cradle by government-subsidized grabs of the core launch markets. The various STAS public results (much is still being held proprietary) can be seen at: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codea/codeae/stas_results.html - Kistler Gets More Financing First Northrop-Grumman effectively bought into Kistler's two-stage reusable launcher project, and now a Taiwanese bank has announced a $50 million additional investment from a consortium of regional banks. Kistler still doesn't have all the money they need to do flight tests and proceed to commercial operations, but they're significantly closer. One curious note in the story we saw mentioned technology transfers as part of the deal - this seems a little odd, in the current very restrictive tech-export climate. - Rotary Begins ATV Systems Tests Rotary Rocket did the first all-up systems test of their "ATV" atmosphere test vehicle on May 22nd. The ATV is designed to prove out both the general Roton configuration and construction, and the final rotor-borne apporach and landing segment of an operational Roton mission. The ATV is a full-sized composite structure with many of the orbital Roton's internal features, but lacking the main rocket engine. The ATV will take off and climb to 10,000 feet powered by 300-lb thrust peroxide monopropellant thrusters on the rotor blade tips, then fly a standard helicopter-style autorotation descent, with the peroxide thrusters to provide extra maneuvering margin. The Rotary test pilots have described the challenge as rather like flying a conventional helicopter with a large load slung underneath. The May 22nd test saw the vehicle rolled out and tied down solidly to the ground; then the rotors were spun up using the tip jets. A rotor RPM sensor failed and the system was shut down, ending the test. According to a Rotary press release, all-up ground tests will resume once the rotor systems have been thoroughly inspected and if necessary repaired. Once successful full-duration ground systems tests have been completed, the ATV will begin flight test. Non- rotor systems test are meanwhile going forward. In other Rotary news, rumors are circulating that Rotary is looking at a lower-cost alternative to the Russian engine baselined for their suborbital PTV-1 test vehicle. Maximum performance is not vital in this application, while development money is tight - a few million here, a few million there, soon it adds up to real money... That's all for this issue! __________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society's sole purpose is to promote radical reductions in the cost of reaching space. You may redistribute this Update in any medium you choose, as long as you do it unedited and in its entirety. __________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society http://www.space-access.org space.access@space-access.org "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere in the Solar System" - Robert A. Heinlein From VM Tue Jun 8 10:26:38 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["969" "Tuesday" "8" "June" "1999" "08:35:17" "-0400" "Mike Cross" "mikec@cyberportal.net" nil "26" "starship-design: silly question" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 969 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA28293 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.fcgnetworks.net (root@genesis.cyberportal.net [208.210.86.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA28288 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.cyberportal.net (mikec@genesis.cyberportal.net [208.210.86.8]) by genesis.fcgnetworks.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26120 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:35:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: mikec@genesis.fcgnetworks.net Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Mike Cross From: Mike Cross Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: silly question Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Hi, I've been lruking on this list for about 18 months now, and I really enjoy reading what you all post. I have a question that has been bugging me, and you guys seem like the best people to ask on the matter. I know it's just some simple physics, but I'm horrible at these things. So here goes- If you had a rock floating in space, and another rock 1 light year away, and a pole in between the two, and assuming you were strong enough to move the pole (strong being all the mass and strength and everything I dont account for that would keep the rocks from moving apart when you push the pole) would it take one year for the pole to move on the receiving rock, or would it be instantaneous? I think it would take a year, but my friend thinks it would be instant. Of course, the answer is probably something like 'it's impossible to move a pole that big', but I thought I would find out instead of wonder about it. Thanks! --mike cross mikec@cyberportal.net From VM Tue Jun 8 10:26:38 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1897" "Tuesday" "8" "June" "1999" "14:50:49" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "43" "Re: starship-design: silly question" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1897 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA00956 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA00946 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA04990; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:50:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199906081250.OAA04990@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, mikec@cyberportal.net Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: silly question Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:50:49 +0200 (MET DST) > From: Mike Cross > > Hi, I've been lruking on this list for about 18 months now, and I really > enjoy reading what you all post. > > I have a question that has been bugging me, and you guys seem like the > best people to ask on the matter. I know it's just some simple physics, > but I'm horrible at these things. > > So here goes- > > If you had a rock floating in space, and another rock 1 light year away, > and a pole in between the two, and assuming you were strong enough to move > the pole (strong being all the mass and strength and everything I dont > account for that would keep the rocks from moving apart when you push the > pole) would it take one year for the pole to move on the receiving rock, > or would it be instantaneous? > > I think it would take a year, but my friend thinks it would be instant. > Of course, the answer is probably something like 'it's impossible to move > a pole that big', but I thought I would find out instead of wonder about > it. > It will take much more than a year - it has nothing to do with relativity, speed of light, etc., it simply follows from quite classical physics. The disturbance caused by the push at one end will move along the pole with the speed of sound in the material of the pole, very much smaller than the speed of light, and different for different materials (depending on the so-called Young modulus, measuring the stiffness of the material). You can test it youeself easily, making your "pole" from something with very small stiffness (e.g. a long, helical spring of wire), push (or better in this case, pull) one end and observe, when the other end jerks... It would be instantaneous (within classical physics) if the pole was made from an "absolutely stiff" material, but such materials do not exist (that they can't, follows, however, only from quantum relativity...). -- Zenon Kulpa From VM Thu Jun 10 10:27:04 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["34380" "Thursday" "10" "June" "1999" "07:28:06" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "773" "starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 June 8" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 34380 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA05282 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA05273 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claymore (p252.gnt.com [204.49.91.12]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA20288 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:29:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01beb33c$b0ff65d0$0101a8c0@claymore> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Clayton Parker" From: "L. Clayton Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design" Subject: starship-design: FW: SpaceViews -- 1999 June 8 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:28:06 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: owner-spaceviews@wayback.com [mailto:owner-spaceviews@wayback.com] On Behalf Of jeff@spaceviews.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 8:06 AM Subject: SpaceViews -- 1999 June 8 [ SpaceViews (tm) newsletter ] [ see end of message for our NEW address to subscribe / unsubscribe ] S P A C E V I E W S Issue 1999.06.08 1999 June 8 http://www.spaceviews.com/1999/0608/ *** News *** Shuttle Completes ISS Mission Current Mir Crew to Be the Last NASA Confirms Plans for Lunar Prospector Crash Power Glitch Cause of WIRE Satellite Failure Roton Tests Proceed Slowly Complex Europan Life Unlikely NEO Searches Require Funding, Cooperation SpaceViews Event Horizon Other News *** Articles *** Space in the Next Millennium: The 1999 International Space Development Conference ** NSS News *** Upcoming Boston NSS Events *** News *** Shuttle Completes ISS Mission The space shuttle Discovery landed at the Kennedy Space Center, Florida, early Sunday, June 6, bringing to a successful end the first resupply mission to the International Space Station. The shuttle touched down at the Kennedy Space Center's Shuttle Landing Facility at 2:03 am EDT (0603 UT), ending the nine day, 19 hour STS-96 mission. The night landing, only the 11th in the shuttle program's history, went smoothly. The landing came less than 24 hours after the shuttle completed the last major task of the mission. In the early morning hours of Saturday, June 5, the shuttle deployed the small educational STARSHINE satellite from Discovery's cargo bay. Although the satellite is only a little larger than a basketball, the 900 mirrors on its surface will reflect sunlight and allow students on Earth to track the satellite. The satellite was already widely observed in eastern North America just after its deployment, as it flew in formation with the shuttle and ISS. The shuttle undocked from ISS at 6:39 pm EDT (2239 UT) Thursday, June 3, a little more than twelve hours after the seven-person shuttle crew closed the hatches separating the shuttle with the ISS's Unity module. After the hatches were sealed, the shuttle used its thrusters to raise the orbit of itself and the ISS by about 10 km (6 mi.), to an altitude of 397 km (246 mi.) NASA estimates that ISS's orbit will slowly delay to an altitude of 358 km (222 mi.) by the time Zvezda, the Russian-built Service Module, is launched by the end of the year. The undocking brought to a successful close the first shuttle logistics mission to ISS. While the two spacecraft were docked the crew of STS-96 transferred over 1,620 kg (3,565 lbs.) of material to the station, including water, clothes, food, and computers. Shuttle astronauts Tamara Jernigan and Daniel Barry also mounted an additional 300 kg (660 lbs.) of equipment to the exterior of the station during their eight hour spacewalk May 29-30. The next shuttle mission will be the long-delayed launch of the shuttle Columbia on mission STS-93 to deploy the Chandra X-Ray Observatory. Shuttle program managers have tentatively set a July 22 launch date for the five-day mission, although that date is still under review. The next shuttle mission to the International Space Station will likely not take place until the end of the year, when the shuttle Atlantis launches on STS-101. That launch will not take place until the Russians launch Zvezda. That launch may take place as soon as September but is not expected until at least November. Current Mir Crew to Be the Last The three-man crew currently aboard the Russian space station Mir will be the last to occupy the station and will leave the orbiting facility in August, Russian Space Agency officials announced Tuesday, June 1. Mir will remain in orbit unoccupied after the crew's departure until it is deorbited in early 2000, barring a last-minute infusion of private funds, officials said. The announcement was an acknowledgment by Russian officials that efforts to raise private funding to keep the station in orbit have failed and that the Russian government is unwilling to continue funding the station beyond August. "We can't keep the station aloft, because we have no money," RSA spokesman Sergei Gorbunov told Russian television. The Russian government has been under American pressure to devote its limited funds to the International Space Station. Under the current plan, the three-man crew on Mir -- commander Viktor Afansayev, flight engineer Sergei Avdeyev, and French guest cosmonaut Jean-Pierre Haignere -- will remain on Mir as previously planned until August, then return to Earth. Before leaving, they will install a new flight computer on the station that will allow it to be more reliably controlled from the ground. Rather than deorbiting the station immediately after the crew's departure, controllers will allow Mir's orbit to slowly decay until it can be deorbited in early 2000. The delay will allow Energia, the company that operates Mir for the Russian Space Agency, to make one final effort to raise funds to keep operating the station. Energia had made several efforts to raise funding from private foreign sources, but those efforts fell through. Most recently, Energia claimed that British businessman Peter Llewellyn would pay or raise $100 million to fly to Mir in August. However, Llewellyn apparently did not raise the money and he was dismissed from cosmonaut training last month for reportedly being too tall to safely fit in a Soyuz capsule. "This station is unique and it can continue serving Russia for quite a long time," Gorbunov said. "All cosmonauts agree that it's a great pity to abandon it." NASA Confirms Plans for Lunar Prospector Crash Lunar Prospector's mission will come to an end in late July when the spacecraft is deliberately crashed into a lunar crater in an effort to observe water ice, NASA confirmed Tuesday, June 2. Lunar Prospector, whose extended mission was set to end this summer, will be targeted for an impact in a permanently-shadowed region of the crater Mawson, near the lunar south pole, on July 31. Scientists hope the impact will throw up a plume of material, including water ice, that will be visible from telescopes on Earth. Based on estimated concentrations of water ice in that region, up to 18 kg (40 lbs.) of water or byproducts like hydroxyl ions will be thrown into the plume. The plume, which will last only a few minutes, will be observed by the Hubble Space Telescope, the McDonald Observatory in Texas, and potentially other observatories, such as the powerful Keck telescope. Water molecules may also be detected in the Moon's very tenuous atmosphere for several hours after the impact. The odds of detecting any water are thought to be rather low, based on the limited energy of impact from the small spacecraft to uncertainty on the impact location. However, with Lunar Prospector set to crash into the surface anyway at the end of its mission, NASA officials and outside scientists agreed the deliberate impact would be a good test. "While the probability of success for such a bold undertaking is low, the potential science payoff is tremendous," Gunter Riegler of NASA's Office of Space Science said. "Since the implementation costs are minimal and the mission is scheduled to end anyway, it seems fitting to give Lunar Prospector the chance to provide scientific data right up to the very end of its highly successful mission." The impact was first suggested by David Goldstein, an aerospace engineering professor at the University of Texas, and was later peer-reviewed by a scientific panel. While defending the experiment, Goldstein notes that the impact is a "long-shot experiment," with about a 10 percent chance of success. Lunar Prospector has indirectly detected the existence of water ice on the Moon through its neutron spectrometer. The spectrometer detects hydrogen, which scientists then infer to be water based on the observed concentrations and locations. "A positive spectral detection of water vapor or its photo-dissociated byproduct, OH [hydroxyl], would provide definite proof of the presence of water ice in the lunar regolith," Goldstein said. The impact would not be the first time the demise of a spacecraft has been used for scientific purposes. At the end of its Venus-mapping mission, the Magellan spacecraft dipped into the planet's dense atmosphere to test aerobraking techniques using the spacecraft's solar panels. The results of these tests have been used on later missions, like Mars Global Surveyor, that have used aerobraking to change their orbits. Power Glitch Cause of WIRE Satellite Failure A brief power glitch in a minor electronic component is believed to be the cause of the failure of a $80-million NASA science satellite, investigators reported Friday, June 4. A board of investigation at Utah State University (USU), where the instrument for the Wide-Field Infrared Explorer (WIRE) satellite was built, concluded that a power surge in a $2,000 integrated circuit led to the failure of the mission in March. Engineers at USU's Space Dynamics Laboratory (SDL) found that the telescope experienced a power surge lasting just 1/40th of a second when it was first turned on. The surge was powerful enough, however, to prematurely blow the explosive bolts on a sunshade used to protect the cryostat, a container of solid hydrogen that cools WIRE's instruments. With the sunshade gone, the solid hydrogen began to sublimate and vent out of the spacecraft, spinning the spacecraft up. By the time spacecraft engineers were able to bring WIRE's attitude back under control all the hydrogen had been lost, effectively ending WIRE's planned scientific mission. The power surge was an undocumented feature of the circuit not seen in tests, USU/SDL officials said. "The circuit that caused the problem is very commonly used. We've used it many times before and it hasn't been a problem in systems for computing and other tasks," WIRE program manager Harry Ames said. "The anomaly occurs so intermittently and fast that it went undetected during multiple tests at SDL, and Goddard Space Flight Center before the launch." However, Ames and his lab did not shirk responsibility for the failure. "As the program manager and an SDL executive, I don't believe SDL should rely on anyone else ensuring that we're doing our job correctly," he told the Salt Lake Tribune. "In that respect, I personally accept accountability and responsibility for this failure." Ames said the lab will bolster its parts selection and review process to reduce the chance of a similar problem cropping up on a future mission. The USU report is not the final word on the failure of the WIRE mission, which was to perform observations at long infrared wavelengths of everything from nearby asteroids to distant galaxies. A NASA report is expected later this year. While the loss of the hydrogen prevented the spacecraft from carrying out its scientific mission, the rest of the spacecraft is now working well, engineers report. WIRE is now being used to study ways to control and maneuver satellites. Roton Tests Proceed Slowly The first prototype of Rotary Rocket's Roton reusable launch vehicle (RLV) has yet to make its first flight test as ground tests continue, three months after its rollout, the company reported this week. When the Roton Atmospheric Test Vehicle (ATV) was rolled out to the public in a ceremony March 1, plans called for the first low-level atmospheric flight tests within several weeks. However, according to a May 31 Rotary Rocket press release, the company did not begin full ground testing of the ATV until early May. Those ground tests, which verified the ATV's rotors and other vehicle systems, led to an "all-up" ground test on May 22, with a two-person crew in the ATV performing a limited test of the vehicle, which was tied down to prevent it from taking off. That test ended prematurely when a sensor in the rotor failed. Company engineers are now making unspecified inspections and checks to the ATV before performing another tie-down test. A series of tie-down tests, which will conclude with a full-throttle test of the rotor, will precede an actual flight test. The ATV is designed to test the low-level, low-speed flight characteristics of the Roton RLV. The ATV lacks the rocket engines that will be used to propel the Roton into orbit, but does have the rotor system, including small rocket thrusters on the tips of the rotors, that will be used to land the vehicle like a helicopter. Fundraising, a major hurdle for most launch vehicle start-ups, has not slowed down testing of the Roton ATV, company officials said. "While space funding clearly represents a bigger challenge than space technology to RRC and the other nascent space companies," said Geoffrey Hughes, vice president of sales and marketing for Rotary, "we have more than enough funding in-hand to complete the flight test program and continue on." Complex Europan Life Unlikely Future spacecraft missions to Europa may uncover simple life forms swimming in the Jovian moon's subsurface oceans, but are unlikely to find more complex life, Caltech scientists reported last week. In a paper published in the June 4 issue of the journal Science, a team of Caltech geobiologists concluded that Europa lacks the heat sources needed to provide the energy required for the development of complex multicellular life. Unlike the Earth, where sunlight is the most significant source of energy for life, even those living deep in the ocean, life on Europa would have to rely on the heat generated by the moon's core, as the moon's ice crust would prevent sunlight from reaching the underground ocean. "One must be careful when doing comparative planetology," said Eric Gaidos, lead author of the paper. "It is not a safe assumption to use Earth as an analogy. A liquid-water ocean on Europa does not necessarily mean there is life there." The energy available in the assumed Europan oceans would be enough to support simple, single-celled life forms, Gaidos and colleagues believe, but would hinder the evolution of more complex lifeforms that require additional energy sources. Alternative energy sources for Europan life forms do exist, Gaidos notes, such as the possibility of deriving energy from oxidized iron -- rust -- that may be found in the ocean. "But we are talking about very simple organisms that can live on these energy sources," Gaidos said. "These are not multicellular creatures." Any spacecraft mission that would be able to detect life of any kind in Europa is still many years in the future. NASA is currently planning Europa Orbiter spacecraft for launch in 2003 that would go into orbit around the moon three to five years later. It would be able to measure the thickness of the ice crust and discern any subsurface ocean, but would not be able to directly detect life. NASA has informally discussed follow-on missions to Europa Orbiter that would land on and/or penetrate the ice crust, including submersibles that would navigate within the Europan ocean. Additional planning has taken place outside NASA, from a group at Cornell University to an Internet-based group that has discussed the basics of such a mission. NEO Searches Require Funding, Cooperation Astronomers involved in the search for near-Earth objects (NEOs) stressed the need at an Italian conference last week for greater funding and international cooperation to improve their searches. Scientists attending the International Monitoring Programs for Asteroid and Comet Threat (IMPACT) conference in Torino, Italy, representing a large fraction of the NEO science community, worked on a number of recommendations to pass on to the International Astronomical Union. Key among the recommendations generated by scientists was the need for greater cooperation among the various national research programs to look for NEOs. Participants called for the creation of national "Spaceguard" centers that would work together with the international Spaceguard Foundation to coordinate searches and follow-up efforts. Such cooperation is seen as necessary as the number of NEO search programs grows. However, even with all the new programs, it is uncertain whether they will be able to reach Spaceguard's goal of detecting 90 percent of all NEO's more than 1 km (0.6 mi.) in diameter in the next ten years. In addition, followup observing programs, as well as efforts to observe smaller objects, will require more and larger telescopes. Participants also made recommendations on the best way to communicate reports of potentially hazardous objects, including the use of a "hazard scale" to more effectively describe the risk of impact by an NEO. The specifics of those recommendations will be finalized later this summer. Conference members also called on more efforts devoted to followup searches and compositional studies of asteroids to determine their true nature (although such studies will require the use of large telescopes) as well as new search programs based in the Southern Hemisphere. The final recommendations from the IMPACT conference will be passed on to the IAU and published in July or August. SpaceViews Event Horizon June 8 Delta 2 launch of four Globalstar satellites from Cape Canaveral, Florida at 10:22 am EDT (1422 UT) June 12 Proton launch of Russian Raduga comsat (and initial flight of the Breeze-M upper stage) from Baikonur, Kazakhstan. June 16 Proton/Blok DM flight of Astra-1H comsat at 8:48 pm EDT (0048 UT June 17) from Baikonur, Kazakhstan. June 18 Titan 2 launch of the NASA Quikscat Earth science satellite from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California, at 10:15 pm EDT (0215 UT June 19) June 23-24 First U.S. Space Tourism Conference, Washington, DC June 26 (NET) Atlas 2A launch of the GOES-L weather satellite from Cape Canaveral, Florida (under review) June TBD Long March 2C/SD launch of two Iridium satellites from Taiyuan, China July 15-16 Lunar Base Development Symposium, League City, TX Other News Iridium Extension: Iridium has gained an extra month, until the end of June, to restructure its finances and avoid a possible bankruptcy of the first global satellite phone company. he financially-troubled company had faced a May 31 deadline to deal with $800 million in loans due to various creditors. The extension gives the company more time to restructure the debt in a manner agreeable to both creditors and investors. Under terms of an agreement made with creditors earlier this year, the company was to have at least 27,000 customers by the end of May. However, by the end of March, the latest data available, the company had barely 10,000 phone and pager customers, with a growth rate too small to allow the company to reach its goals. Mars Microbes: Scientists at the University of Arkansas have succeeded in growing one kind of microbes in conditions similar to those on the surface of Mars. Biologist Tim Kral tested how methanogens, microbes that exhale methane and can exist in harsh conditions on the Earth, grow in an atmosphere of carbon dioxide, hydrogen, and water. To simulate Martian soil they used ash from an Hawaiian volcano, whose composition is similar to what has been seen on Mars. Kral found that the microbes continued to live in the harsh Mars-like environment, based on emissions of methane. Even when the amount of water was decreased to nearly zero the microbes continued to thrive. Other potentially-hazardous aspects of the Martian environment, including oxidizing soil chemistry and ultraviolet radiation, were not included in the test. Rotary/ASR Agreement: Applied Space Resources (ASR) has signed a letter of intent with Rotary Rocket Company to launch its Lunar Retriever I spacecraft on Rotary's Roton launch vehicle, ASR company officials report. The five-year letter, beginning in 2002, sets a fixed price for the launch that was not announced. Lunar Retriever I is planned as a mission that will return over 10 kg (22 lbs.) of lunar samples to the Earth for use by scientists as well as for commercial sale. Mars Plane Work Begins: NASA is beginning in-house development of an airplane that will fly on Mars in 2003, Space News reported in its June 7 issue. The Langley Research Center will develop the aircraft, rather than private industry, as the space agency sees this as a technology development project that could aid future missions. The exact design of the aircraft is still being debated, with a number of different designs being considered. Engineers will work closely with scientists to maximize the limited payload for scientific instruments on the vehicle, which will be no more than a few kilograms. TransHab Debate: Strong words are being exchanged in the space activist community about the fate of TransHab, an inflatable module that could be used on ISS and Mars missions, but whose funding was prohibited in the NASA authorization bill passed by the House of Representatives last month. Mars Society president Robert Zubrin claimed in an editorial in Space News (reprinted as a Mars Society alert) that Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) opposes TransHab because he opposed manned missions to Mars. Not so, say others, including Keith Cowing of NASA Watch, who notes that Rohrabacher's opposition to TransHab has noting to do with Mars. Rather, Rohrabacher favors commercial development and procurement of ISS modules, rather than a NASA-developed TransHab. Briefly: Watch out, John Glenn, someone may be gunning for your title of oldest man to fly in space. The Xinhua news agency reports that 80-year-old Yang Jiaxi, a renown Chinese aerospace engineer, would like to fly in space on one of the first manned Chinese launches, which may take place as soon as late this year... The space history community is mourning the death of Maxim Tarasenko, a young Russian space history scholar who died in a traffic accident last month. To financially help Tarasenko's wife and two children, American space historian James Harford has created a memorial fund. Checks made out to the "James Harford-Tarasenko Account" can be mailed to Harford at 601 Lake Drive, Princeton, NJ 08540. Over $3,000 has been raised to date. *** Articles *** Space in the Next Millennium: The 1999 International Space Development Conference by Jeff Foust Participants at the 1999 International Space Development Conference (ISDC) last month had an opportunity to both honor the past of space exploration and get a glimpse at what the future of space exploration and development holds. Several hundred space enthusiasts attended the 1999 ISDC, held May 27-31 in Houston. At a meeting that fortuitously coincided with the STS-96 shuttle mission, attendees learned about everything from the past of space exploration to cutting-edge technologies and commercial endeavors that may open the space frontier for everyone. Remembering "The Forgotten Apollo" The 1999 ISDC was held almost exactly 30 years to the day since the Apollo 10 mission, the "dress rehearsal" for the successful Apollo 11 landing two months later. All three Apollo 10 astronauts -- Gene Cernan, Tom Stafford, and John Young -- were in attendance at a gala dinner May 28 to honor the anniversary. "Apollo 10 is sort of the forgotten flight of Apollo," noted Cernan in an emotional address towards the end of the evening, when he shared the podium with Stafford. Cernan called on NASA to involve younger generations, including teenagers, into the space program. "If we can send a 77-year-old into space, why can't we send a 17-year-old?" he asked, saying that such a flight would give kids a greater "ownership" of space. Young, who spoke earlier in the evening before returning to Johnson Space Center to monitor the ongoing shuttle mission, looked instead at the future, including sending humans back to the Moon and on to Mars. "It will happen," he confidently said. "We'll make it happen." To make it happen, though, Young said we need to better educate the public on the importance of such missions. "The only 'war' we have to be successful on is the war on ignorance," he said. Life on Mars: An Update Everett Gibson, a leading member of the team of scientists at the Johnson Space Center who announced evidence of possible past life in Martian meteorite ALH 84001 nearly three years ago, provided an update on their team's research. Gibson said that despite repeated challenges to their conclusions, their initial conclusions are still valid. "All four legs [aspects of their work that support their conclusions] are standing today, and are standing stronger," he claimed. Gibson said initial claims by other researches on a variety of fronts, including reports of terrestrial contamination, high temperature formation of carbonates, and the small size of the nanofossils and magnetite crystals, have upon further scrutiny ended up supporting claims that the meteorite supports evidence of past Martian life. Gibson also discussed new evidence from two other Martian meteorites, Nakhla and Shergotty, which also show evidence of primitive Martian life. Nakhla, in particular, shows evidence of nanofossils and "biofilms" of organic material, and the isotopic rations seen there are consistent with a biogenic origin. The new findings lend support to the belief that life on Mars exists today: while ALH 84001 is 4 billion years old, Nakhla is just 1.3 billion years old and Shergotty a mere 165 million years old. "There have been no major events in the last 165 million years to keep life on Mars from surviving to this day," Gibson said. New Paths for Commercial Space While some focused on the past and present of space exploration, one track of the conference was devoted to plans for commercial development of space, including some relatively unconventional paths to space development. Given the lack of low-cost access to space currently, it might seem premature to consider developing space hotels. However, Greg Bennett of Bigelow Aerospace -- a new division of the Bigelow Development Company, owners of the Budget hotel chain -- said that's precisely what his company is currently planning. We're just now beginning to see the "seeds of space tourism", he said, but tourism worldwide is the sending largest export industry in the world, behind only oil. He said that billion-dollar luxury cruise ships are being built every year, and filling up just as rapidly, indicating the growing market for tourism. Bigelow is looking at plans to build the space equivalent of such cruise liners, such as a ship that could carry 150 people on a 6-day round trip to the Moon. Bennett said that while the company is just starting up, its plans are well past the stage of "just an idea." Although the conventional notion of commercial space involves the development of spacecraft or launch vehicles, Charles Chafer of Encounter 2001 discussed that there may be far easier ways to make money and involve a larger portion of the market. Encounter 2001 is developing a spacecraft to be launched in late 2001 that will carry the records of up to 4.5 million people, who will pay $50 each to fly a personal message and a sample of their DNA into interstellar space. By marketing to a far larger audience than the typical "space geek" community, and by eschewing investment capital, "we're not perceived as a commercial space company," Chafer said. The company also recently completed a project called the Cosmic Call, where people paid $15 each to transmit a brief personal message to four Sunlike stars 51 to 71 light-years from Earth. Chafer said 45,000 messages were sent in this transmission, with two more planned in early 2000 and 2001. "That ain't something you do in a typical space geek approach," Chafer said. The company is ahead of projections on sales for its Millennial Voyage spacecraft, and has signed a contract with AeroAstro to build the spacecraft. Chafer said the company is willing to work with NASA to fly scientific payloads on the spacecraft, which will launch as a secondary payload on an Ariane 5. Cities, in addition to state and federal governments, may also have a role in promoting commercial space, noted Rob Todd, a Houston city council member whose district includes the Johnson Space Center. A city the size of Houston has over $1 billion in pension funds to invest, he notes, some of which can be used to support local aerospace startups. "Even if 9 of 10 fail, the one that succeeds can more than make up the difference," Todd said. City governments can also provide mentoring and small business support services, he noted, as well as create "incubators" for startups, such as one he has proposed for Houston's Ellington Field. States are also playing a role in the scramble to propose spaceports for VentureStar and other reusable launch vehicles, according to former Apollo astronaut Walt Cunningham, who leads the Texas Aerospace Commission. He said that 18-20 states have submitted proposals for spaceports, but "some make more sense than others." In Texas along, Cunningham said, there have been 13 proposals submitted, although those have been self-selected down to three, one in Pecos County in west Texas and two in eastern Texas. Both Kistler and Space Access have expressed an interest in these sites, in addition to Lockheed Martin's VentureStar. NSS Awards The National Space Society handed out a number of awards in its annual awards ceremony, emceed this year by actor Bruce Boxleitner (Captain/President Sheridan of "Babylon 5" fame), a member of the NSS Board of Governors. Space Pioneer Awards went to former NSS president Charlie Walker for Activist of the Year; actor Tom Hanks for Mass Media; and former astronaut and senator John Glenn for "Wide Media". In addition, NSS gave the biannual von Braun award to Robert Seamans Jr. for his work on the Apollo program. None of the award recipients were present, but Seamans did provide a videotaped acceptance. Chapter excellence awards were given to Oregon L5 for its research into the use of lava tubes as potential lunar habitats, and Wichita NSS for its numerous educational outreach and other activities. Other chapters earning awards included Boston NSS, OASIS, Western Spaceport, NSS Atlanta, Austin Space Frontier Society, Orange County Space Society, and the Milwaukee Lunar Reclamation Society. The U.S. Air Force Academy chapter was recognized as the most promising new chapter. The ISDC will move out west for the next few years, with the 2000 conference to be held in Tucson, Arizona, while the 2001 meeting will take place in Albuquerque, New Mexico. *** NSS News *** Upcoming Boston NSS Events Thursday, June 10, 7:30pm "There's 'Real Science' on Gore-Sat: The Triana Satellite Plasma-Mag Solar-Weather Instrument" by Dr. Alan J. Lazarus, MIT Space Plasma Group Dr. Lazarus will discuss The Triana Satellite "Faraday cup," a sun-viewing instrument to measure the solar wind at the L1 orbit and how to use this data to detect Solar flares. The AP reports: "Solar flares may add to Y2K trouble, Expect energetic January sun." Can we provide rapid warning of solar flares and other extreme solar events to allow utility companies and satellite operators timely and effective warning? Triana carries a sun-viewing instrument to measure the solar wind (Faraday cup) and a magnetometer, the data can be used to provide early warning of solar events that might cause damage to various electrical devices (e.g., power generation, communications, and satellites). Meetings of the Boston chapter of the National Space Society are held in the 8th floor "playoom" of the Laboratory of Computer Science, 545 Main Street (Tech Square), in Cambridge. The building is located just past the railroad tracks on Main Street, near the intersection with Vassar/Fulkerson Street. Free parking is available in the parking lot adjoining the building. By T, take the Red Line to the Kendall/MIT stop, then walk up Main Street (away from Boston) about three blocks to the building. More information is available at http://www.spaceviews.com/boston/ . ======== This has been the June 8, 1999, issue of SpaceViews. SpaceViews is also available on the World Wide web from the SpaceViews home page: http://www.spaceviews.com/ or via anonymous FTP from ftp.seds.org: ftp://ftp.seds.org/pub/info/newsletters/spaceviews/text/19990608.txt To unsubscribe from SpaceViews, send mail to: majordomo@spaceviews.com In the body (not subject) of the message, type: unsubscribe spaceviews For editorial questions and article submissions for SpaceViews, including letters to the editor, contact the editor, Jeff Foust, at jeff@spaceviews.com For questions about the SpaceViews mailing list, please contact spaceviews-approval@spaceviews.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____ | "SpaceViews" (tm) -by Boston Chapter // \ // | of the National Space Society (NSS) // (O) // | Dedicated to the establishment // \___// | of a spacefaring civilization. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- - - To NOT receive future newsletters, send this message to our NEW address: - To: majordomo@SpaceViews.com - Subject: anything - unsubscribe SpaceViews - - E-Mail List services provided by Northern Winds: www.nw.net - - SpaceViews (tm) is published for the National Space Society (NSS), - copyright (C) Boston Chapter of National Space Society - www.spaceviews.com www.nss.org (jeff@spaceviews.com) From VM Fri Jun 11 10:19:19 1999 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3643" "Thursday" "10" "June" "1999" "22:04:24" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "89" "starship-design: Fwd: space.com" "